Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

Happy to have a civil discussion. When someone posts an intentionally cruel or ignorant comment I respond accordingly.

DP
So if someone says or thinks 'transgender women are biologically men(XY)' that person is intentionally cruel and anti-trans?
Is that what this debate is about, that we should think transgender women(XY) are the same as women(XX)?

Anonymous wrote:Women can still have women's rights. They just need to make sure the emotional needs of past and present male identifying people are met first.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

I know this sounds ridiculous but hey it's the truth. My school changed all the bathroom so they were available to all, which I agree with at the time, but to be honest most of them became a pissy mess and they were no longer stocked with female hygiene products or had the lotion etc that various women would donate to keep the bathroom lookin and smelling nice. Most women I know hated going to the bathroom and before entering we always had a discussion about how gross it had become, whether it was okay to go in, the condition etc! After we wished we had advocated for a women only bathroom even if it was just a couple, so that we didn't have to share it with men! I wouldn't mind whether trans-women used it or not as long as everyone respects that men's plumbing is different than women's!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

I know this sounds ridiculous but hey it's the truth. My school changed all the bathroom so they were available to all, which I agree with at the time, but to be honest most of them became a pissy mess and they were no longer stocked with female hygiene products or had the lotion etc that various women would donate to keep the bathroom lookin and smelling nice. Most women I know hated going to the bathroom and before entering we always had a discussion about how gross it had become, whether it was okay to go in, the condition etc! After we wished we had advocated for a women only bathroom even if it was just a couple, so that we didn't have to share it with men! I wouldn't mind whether trans-women used it or not as long as everyone respects that men's plumbing is different than women's!

It's not just a plumbing issue. There is literally nothing preventing a person with male plumbing from sitting on a toilet for both pee and poop or preventing them from thoughtfully stocking moisturizers and hygiene products if they use them. It's a socialization issue -- women are socialized to be the caretakers and men the taken-care-of.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

^^^This is such a thoughtful post that captures exactly how I feel. You express yourself in a way I haven’t been able to. Actually, all of your responses in this thread have been thoughtful, clear, and they mirror my beliefs. (I’m pretty sure I can tell which posts are yours, as you have a distinctive writing style.)

Thank you, PP!

[New Poster]

Yes great post except the cis-woman, I was part of the women's movement not the cis-women's movement, let me call myself woman! I refuse to change my name of identification and am not calling my self cis anything, nor are most women on women's study courses in universities worldwide. Otherwise this is a well-thought out and reasonable post!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I really don’t understand what’s offensive about that statement.

I have seen friends’ occasionally post about blocking her and how she’s transphobic. Because I was never a Harry Potter fan I had never followed her very closely. It’s very disappointing to now read her statement and know this is what all the anger was about. Really? Seriously?

She literally denies the existence of trans people. She will not acknowledge that gender =/= sex and a trans woman in her mind is not a woman.

I’m not sure that is what she is saying. But why does it matter what she thinks? This seems to be about thought-control. Is it not sufficient that someone states that they think that trans people should not be discriminated against? Why is it necessary that they *believe* that a trans woman is, in fact, genetically female? If you believe yourself to be female, despite the presence of male genitals on your body, that’s fine. But, if someone else is willing to accept & respect the fact that you live as a woman, why is it so important that they actually *believe* that it’s true?

If she wants to believe it, whatever. What I have an issue with and what most people have an issue with is she has a MASSIVE platform she is choosing to use to harm trans people in PRIDE month. She’s also a children’s book author. Like teachers, children’s book authors have a duty to not harm children. This is so hurtful and offensive to so many of her fans, many of whom are LGBTQ and some who may be trans. She can think whatever she wants but taking PRIDE month to air her grievances against trans people is awful.

Are you also concerned about the erasure of lesbian spaces during Pride? Lesbians are being barred from marching because it’s exclusive. This is really how upside down things are. Pride is banning lesbians. Let that sink in.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/?s=Pride+%2B+lesbian+

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

I know this sounds ridiculous but hey it's the truth. My school changed all the bathroom so they were available to all, which I agree with at the time, but to be honest most of them became a pissy mess and they were no longer stocked with female hygiene products or had the lotion etc that various women would donate to keep the bathroom lookin and smelling nice. Most women I know hated going to the bathroom and before entering we always had a discussion about how gross it had become, whether it was okay to go in, the condition etc! After we wished we had advocated for a women only bathroom even if it was just a couple, so that we didn't have to share it with men! I wouldn't mind whether trans-women used it or not as long as everyone respects that men's plumbing is different than women's!

It's not just a plumbing issue. There is literally nothing preventing a person with male plumbing from sitting on a toilet for both pee and poop or preventing them from thoughtfully stocking moisturizers and hygiene products if they use them. It's a socialization issue -- women are socialized to be the caretakers and men the taken-care-of.

There is nothing to prevent them, I'm just telling you what happened and how disgusting the bathrooms got. Most women I know would prefer a female bathroom, especially when menstruating. If you don't that's fine, but why can't we have at least one or two for women only?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

I know this sounds ridiculous but hey it's the truth. My school changed all the bathroom so they were available to all, which I agree with at the time, but to be honest most of them became a pissy mess and they were no longer stocked with female hygiene products or had the lotion etc that various women would donate to keep the bathroom lookin and smelling nice. Most women I know hated going to the bathroom and before entering we always had a discussion about how gross it had become, whether it was okay to go in, the condition etc! After we wished we had advocated for a women only bathroom even if it was just a couple, so that we didn't have to share it with men! I wouldn't mind whether trans-women used it or not as long as everyone respects that men's plumbing is different than women's!

It's not just a plumbing issue. There is literally nothing preventing a person with male plumbing from sitting on a toilet for both pee and poop or preventing them from thoughtfully stocking moisturizers and hygiene products if they use them. It's a socialization issue -- women are socialized to be the caretakers and men the taken-care-of.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

^^^This is such a thoughtful post that captures exactly how I feel. You express yourself in a way I haven’t been able to. Actually, all of your responses in this thread have been thoughtful, clear, and they mirror my beliefs. (I’m pretty sure I can tell which posts are yours, as you have a distinctive writing style.)

Thank you, PP!

[New Poster]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

I know this sounds ridiculous but hey it's the truth. My school changed all the bathroom so they were available to all, which I agree with at the time, but to be honest most of them became a pissy mess and they were no longer stocked with female hygiene products or had the lotion etc that various women would donate to keep the bathroom lookin and smelling nice. Most women I know hated going to the bathroom and before entering we always had a discussion about how gross it had become, whether it was okay to go in, the condition etc! After we wished we had advocated for a women only bathroom even if it was just a couple, so that we didn't have to share it with men! I wouldn't mind whether trans-women used it or not as long as everyone respects that men's plumbing is different than women's!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I really don’t understand what’s offensive about that statement.

I have seen friends’ occasionally post about blocking her and how she’s transphobic. Because I was never a Harry Potter fan I had never followed her very closely. It’s very disappointing to now read her statement and know this is what all the anger was about. Really? Seriously?

She literally denies the existence of trans people. She will not acknowledge that gender =/= sex and a trans woman in her mind is not a woman.

I’m not sure that is what she is saying. But why does it matter what she thinks? This seems to be about thought-control. Is it not sufficient that someone states that they think that trans people should not be discriminated against? Why is it necessary that they *believe* that a trans woman is, in fact, genetically female? If you believe yourself to be female, despite the presence of male genitals on your body, that’s fine. But, if someone else is willing to accept & respect the fact that you live as a woman, why is it so important that they actually *believe* that it’s true?

If she wants to believe it, whatever. What I have an issue with and what most people have an issue with is she has a MASSIVE platform she is choosing to use to harm trans people in PRIDE month. She’s also a children’s book author. Like teachers, children’s book authors have a duty to not harm children. This is so hurtful and offensive to so many of her fans, many of whom are LGBTQ and some who may be trans. She can think whatever she wants but taking PRIDE month to air her grievances against trans people is awful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Up above there were trans activists who were insisting no trans folks want to force dating partners to date trans folks. But there are articles/commentary online saying exactly that. Here is one, for instance: https://link.medium.com/4hoCDsSDe7

As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I found this article horrifying. Consent is something women have fought for for years. And yet, here is someone insisting that not allowing access to another person's body is transphobic. People get a right to say no and to exercise consent regardless of the reason. There should be NO entitlement at all to another person's body. None.

It's articles like this that I find very, very difficult to absorb. It absolutely feels like this is the point of view of someone who doesn't understand or care about the history of rape and violence against women at all.

They don’t. You would think that Transwomen would be horrified at the violence women experience and would want to support women’s shelters, rape centers, and bodily autonomy. After all, don’t they associate as women? Unfortunately, there is a very vocal group that behaves like women’s safety issues are irrelevant. Who would be so narcissistic as to proudly defund a rape center? And demand to ogle women in a DV shower? Millions of women - people with vaginas - across the world are raped and murdered each year because they are female. They’re not at risk because they feel like women. They’re at risk because they have vaginas. I don’t fear walking alone at night because my gender identity is female. I fear walking alone at night because my sex is female. I support trans people and trans spaces but as a woman who has experienced a lot of male violence, I will fight for biologically-female safe spaces.

Anonymous wrote:Women can still have women's rights. They just need to make sure the emotional needs of past and present male identifying people are met first.