Anonymous wrote:Who the hell washes their hands only five times a day?

This explains why many of you are so susceptible to getting sick. sp

Who the hell washes their hands only five times a day?

Measles is a kind of virus that's dangerous as your immune system may not be able to fight the worst effects of it. For a cold virus, you may be strong enough to fight it. When you live in a farm for example your immune stream fights off daily germs and it is stronger for it. That does NOT mean you somehow are able to fight off the worst effects if the measles! It means that someone else who may always 24/7 be washing their hands because they want to be germ free 100% as much as possible, may require a longer time to fight the same cold virus. Different viruses do different things. Everyone's immune system is also different. The best you can do is to protect yourself from the really scary viruses aka measles and also not be scared of getting a cold or be around germs. It's not wise either extreme to say you don't need any vax nor is it a good way to be vaxxed to the hilt and masked daily washing your hands 5x a day because you don't ever want a cold!

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Anonymous wrote:Unvaxxed people by choice should not be able to get medical help. They endanger others. You can’t accept medical expertise at the end if you dont at the beginning. And I’m not sorry for this opinion.

Drink your bleach. Eat tide pods. Pray it away. Whatever. But no hospital for you. ESPECIALLY when families like this then criticize medical personnel for not doing enough to save their kid. Buddy YOU DIDNT DO ENOUGH. It is YOU that killed your child.

People say things like this and posture like they're dispensing tough love. They're not. Here's how you know: there are lots of things that are endanger public health that we tolerate and celebrate that have *zero* upside. Junk food. Recreational drug use. Sedentary lifestyles. As to people who recklessly overindulge in these, no one suggests withholding medical care--and for good reason; it's totally ghoulish.

Junk food only threatens the health of people who eat it. Sedentary lifestyles only threaten the health of the people who are sedentary. Recreational drug use is mostly illegal and can be prosecuted. Slipping recreational drugs to other, unknowing people is a crime. However, people who are unvaccinated by choice and not for medical reasons present a real threat to the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. They can spread contagions to vulnerable people. If 98% of the people who can safely be vaccinated are vaccinated, that protects all of the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. My avoiding junk food and exercising doesn’t protect anyone who eats junk food and is sedentary. That’s why the things you listed are different.

That would be a reasonable response if contagion were the only negative externality that can result from a health choice. Of course, that is not the case, and a fairly obvious one is the staggering healthcare costs that come from treating disease that could have been prevented or managed through sensible lifestyle changes.

No one is complaining about the money that it costs to treats children with serious measles complications. This isn’t a financial discussion. What’s being discussed here is the toll that non vaccinated people take on the health of people who can’t be vaccinated. There’s a very easy, effective way to prevent the spread of measles. When people opt not to prevent measles, they become vectors for transmission of this highly contagious disease and the result is an outbreak, which can kill or maim young children and people with weakened immune systems. Obesity health complications costs us all more money to treat, but one person’s obesity doesn’t impact another person’s health, which is what the problem is with non vaxers.

You can't just disregard the inconvenient externalities by saying no one is talking about them.

Also one person's obesity absolutely *is* correlated with the next person's. I will grant you that that correlation is not the result of viral or bacterial transmission.

Yep. People who make lifestyle choices that result in them costing more and consuming more in terms of hospital capacity, healthcare facilities, taxpayer money aren't any better than your reviled anti-vaxxers. Ironically anti-vaxxers live in their own communities and don't disproportionately consume public resources unlike drug addicts, obese people, and people engaging in dangerous activities like reckless driving, extreme sports or drug experimentation. Every action has a reaction that reverberates in the society at large. Isolating one group of people to blame for the entirety of our healthcare issues is stupid.

Lol, who blamed anti vaxxers for the entirety of our healthcare issues? There are many, many problems with American healthcare. I wouldn’t rank anti vaxxers very high on a list of them. However, they are a serious threat to infants and people with weakened immune systems. Guess what’s way easier than losing a ton of weight or conquering drug addiction? Getting vaccinated.

Yeah exactly. That's why it's ghoulish to single them out for the denial of medical care.

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Anonymous wrote:Junk food is not contagious.

Sedentary lifestyle aren't contagious.

Recreational drug use isn't, either, but when you jeopardize other lives doing it (e g, intoxicated driving), you face penalties and can be arrested.

C'mon, PP. You know the difference. It's not just about making bags choices -- it's about making bad choices that put others at immediate clear risks. This isn't punishment for making bad choices, but it is instead protecting people from the immediate risks from those choices.

Being anti-vaccine is not contagious either. I think what you mean to say is that there is not the same degree of negative externalities that result from a drug user as there are from an antivaxxer. I am not defending antivaxxers, but that is simply wrong. Having a friend that does meth makes that person's friends far likelier to get addicted to meth.

Manufacturing, selling and even possessing meth are crimes. We don’t dismiss using meth as simply a “lifestyle choice.”

If that distinction matters, it is more reason-- not less-- treat it punitively.

I don’t understand what you’re saying. You think people who are anti vax are treated more punitively than meth users?

No. The proposal I am responding to is that antivaxxers should be denied medical care. When I pointed out that we don't do that for meth users, the response was offered that meth is illegal. I am simply pointing out that, if you are using legality of conduct to determine what to treat, it feels backwards to say you should treat something *because* it is illegal.

Thank you. -DP

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Sad how no one here on this site is bright enough to mention the critical necessity of building immunity.

Do you know what measles does to your immunity?! Start there.

+1 Measles depletes your immune system for years and wipes out immunity you’ve already built.

Viruses are not some benign “natural” thing that ultimately make us stronger. Viral infections trigger permanent chronic disease — from type 1 diabetes that will leave you insulin-dependent and vulnerable for the rest of your life, to lupus which turns the body against its own tissues causing an array of health problems, to degenerative, debilitating, and painful MS.

Seriously, PP: please learn more about viruses.

Your view isn’t the only view held by professionals. You are certainly entitled to your view.

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Anonymous wrote:
Sad how no one here on this site is bright enough to mention the critical necessity of building immunity.

Do you know what measles does to your immunity?! Start there.

+1 Measles depletes your immune system for years and wipes out immunity you’ve already built.

Viruses are not some benign “natural” thing that ultimately make us stronger. Viral infections trigger permanent chronic disease — from type 1 diabetes that will leave you insulin-dependent and vulnerable for the rest of your life, to lupus which turns the body against its own tissues causing an array of health problems, to degenerative, debilitating, and painful MS.

Seriously, PP: please learn more about viruses.

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Anonymous wrote:Unvaxxed people by choice should not be able to get medical help. They endanger others. You can’t accept medical expertise at the end if you dont at the beginning. And I’m not sorry for this opinion.

Drink your bleach. Eat tide pods. Pray it away. Whatever. But no hospital for you. ESPECIALLY when families like this then criticize medical personnel for not doing enough to save their kid. Buddy YOU DIDNT DO ENOUGH. It is YOU that killed your child.

People say things like this and posture like they're dispensing tough love. They're not. Here's how you know: there are lots of things that are endanger public health that we tolerate and celebrate that have *zero* upside. Junk food. Recreational drug use. Sedentary lifestyles. As to people who recklessly overindulge in these, no one suggests withholding medical care--and for good reason; it's totally ghoulish.

Junk food only threatens the health of people who eat it. Sedentary lifestyles only threaten the health of the people who are sedentary. Recreational drug use is mostly illegal and can be prosecuted. Slipping recreational drugs to other, unknowing people is a crime. However, people who are unvaccinated by choice and not for medical reasons present a real threat to the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. They can spread contagions to vulnerable people. If 98% of the people who can safely be vaccinated are vaccinated, that protects all of the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. My avoiding junk food and exercising doesn’t protect anyone who eats junk food and is sedentary. That’s why the things you listed are different.

That would be a reasonable response if contagion were the only negative externality that can result from a health choice. Of course, that is not the case, and a fairly obvious one is the staggering healthcare costs that come from treating disease that could have been prevented or managed through sensible lifestyle changes.

No one is complaining about the money that it costs to treats children with serious measles complications. This isn’t a financial discussion. What’s being discussed here is the toll that non vaccinated people take on the health of people who can’t be vaccinated. There’s a very easy, effective way to prevent the spread of measles. When people opt not to prevent measles, they become vectors for transmission of this highly contagious disease and the result is an outbreak, which can kill or maim young children and people with weakened immune systems. Obesity health complications costs us all more money to treat, but one person’s obesity doesn’t impact another person’s health, which is what the problem is with non vaxers.

You can't just disregard the inconvenient externalities by saying no one is talking about them.

Also one person's obesity absolutely *is* correlated with the next person's. I will grant you that that correlation is not the result of viral or bacterial transmission.

Yep. People who make lifestyle choices that result in them costing more and consuming more in terms of hospital capacity, healthcare facilities, taxpayer money aren't any better than your reviled anti-vaxxers. Ironically anti-vaxxers live in their own communities and don't disproportionately consume public resources unlike drug addicts, obese people, and people engaging in dangerous activities like reckless driving, extreme sports or drug experimentation. Every action has a reaction that reverberates in the society at large. Isolating one group of people to blame for the entirety of our healthcare issues is stupid.

Lol, who blamed anti vaxxers for the entirety of our healthcare issues? There are many, many problems with American healthcare. I wouldn’t rank anti vaxxers very high on a list of them. However, they are a serious threat to infants and people with weakened immune systems. Guess what’s way easier than losing a ton of weight or conquering drug addiction? Getting vaccinated.

Anonymous wrote:If you have low immunity (due to poor nutrition and other environmental factors), you’re more likely to get sick from almost anything floating around. Best possible nutrition is critical.

Don’t you have some vitamin A to go OD on?

Anonymous wrote:If you have low immunity (due to poor nutrition and other environmental factors), you’re more likely to get sick from almost anything floating around. Best possible nutrition is critical.

Nutrition is critical to one’s health, but no nutrients offer the protection from measles that the MMR does.

If you have low immunity (due to poor nutrition and other environmental factors), you’re more likely to get sick from almost anything floating around. Best possible nutrition is critical.

Anonymous wrote:
Sad how no one here on this site is bright enough to mention the critical necessity of building immunity.

You can build immunity two different ways. If you get this particular illness, you get immune amnesia along with the risk of a variety of complications -- but not if you develop your immunity through vaccination.

Anonymous wrote:
Sad how no one here on this site is bright enough to mention the critical necessity of building immunity.

Do you know what measles does to your immunity?! Start there.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Unvaxxed people by choice should not be able to get medical help. They endanger others. You can’t accept medical expertise at the end if you dont at the beginning. And I’m not sorry for this opinion.

Drink your bleach. Eat tide pods. Pray it away. Whatever. But no hospital for you. ESPECIALLY when families like this then criticize medical personnel for not doing enough to save their kid. Buddy YOU DIDNT DO ENOUGH. It is YOU that killed your child.

People say things like this and posture like they're dispensing tough love. They're not. Here's how you know: there are lots of things that are endanger public health that we tolerate and celebrate that have *zero* upside. Junk food. Recreational drug use. Sedentary lifestyles. As to people who recklessly overindulge in these, no one suggests withholding medical care--and for good reason; it's totally ghoulish.

Junk food only threatens the health of people who eat it. Sedentary lifestyles only threaten the health of the people who are sedentary. Recreational drug use is mostly illegal and can be prosecuted. Slipping recreational drugs to other, unknowing people is a crime. However, people who are unvaccinated by choice and not for medical reasons present a real threat to the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. They can spread contagions to vulnerable people. If 98% of the people who can safely be vaccinated are vaccinated, that protects all of the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. My avoiding junk food and exercising doesn’t protect anyone who eats junk food and is sedentary. That’s why the things you listed are different.

That would be a reasonable response if contagion were the only negative externality that can result from a health choice. Of course, that is not the case, and a fairly obvious one is the staggering healthcare costs that come from treating disease that could have been prevented or managed through sensible lifestyle changes.

No one is complaining about the money that it costs to treats children with serious measles complications. This isn’t a financial discussion. What’s being discussed here is the toll that non vaccinated people take on the health of people who can’t be vaccinated. There’s a very easy, effective way to prevent the spread of measles. When people opt not to prevent measles, they become vectors for transmission of this highly contagious disease and the result is an outbreak, which can kill or maim young children and people with weakened immune systems. Obesity health complications costs us all more money to treat, but one person’s obesity doesn’t impact another person’s health, which is what the problem is with non vaxers.

You can't just disregard the inconvenient externalities by saying no one is talking about them.

Also one person's obesity absolutely *is* correlated with the next person's. I will grant you that that correlation is not the result of viral or bacterial transmission.

But this isn’t a discussion of all of society’s ills. There is no question that, as a society, we are harmed by high rates of obesity, but that’s a completely different situation. This thread is about the effect that anti vaxxers have on the rest of us. It’s more comparable to the effect that second hand smoke has on nonsmokers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unvaxxed people by choice should not be able to get medical help. They endanger others. You can’t accept medical expertise at the end if you dont at the beginning. And I’m not sorry for this opinion.

Drink your bleach. Eat tide pods. Pray it away. Whatever. But no hospital for you. ESPECIALLY when families like this then criticize medical personnel for not doing enough to save their kid. Buddy YOU DIDNT DO ENOUGH. It is YOU that killed your child.

People say things like this and posture like they're dispensing tough love. They're not. Here's how you know: there are lots of things that are endanger public health that we tolerate and celebrate that have *zero* upside. Junk food. Recreational drug use. Sedentary lifestyles. As to people who recklessly overindulge in these, no one suggests withholding medical care--and for good reason; it's totally ghoulish.

Junk food only threatens the health of people who eat it. Sedentary lifestyles only threaten the health of the people who are sedentary. Recreational drug use is mostly illegal and can be prosecuted. Slipping recreational drugs to other, unknowing people is a crime. However, people who are unvaccinated by choice and not for medical reasons present a real threat to the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. They can spread contagions to vulnerable people. If 98% of the people who can safely be vaccinated are vaccinated, that protects all of the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. My avoiding junk food and exercising doesn’t protect anyone who eats junk food and is sedentary. That’s why the things you listed are different.

That would be a reasonable response if contagion were the only negative externality that can result from a health choice. Of course, that is not the case, and a fairly obvious one is the staggering healthcare costs that come from treating disease that could have been prevented or managed through sensible lifestyle changes.

No one is complaining about the money that it costs to treats children with serious measles complications. This isn’t a financial discussion. What’s being discussed here is the toll that non vaccinated people take on the health of people who can’t be vaccinated. There’s a very easy, effective way to prevent the spread of measles. When people opt not to prevent measles, they become vectors for transmission of this highly contagious disease and the result is an outbreak, which can kill or maim young children and people with weakened immune systems. Obesity health complications costs us all more money to treat, but one person’s obesity doesn’t impact another person’s health, which is what the problem is with non vaxers.

You can't just disregard the inconvenient externalities by saying no one is talking about them.

Also one person's obesity absolutely *is* correlated with the next person's. I will grant you that that correlation is not the result of viral or bacterial transmission.