That jives with Arab Christian usage. When speaking Arabic, Allah is used, but I can't imagine an Arab Christian saying Allah in English.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can tell who are the true Islamaphobes on this thread.

They are the ones who refer to the God Muslims worship as Allah when writing in English. Allsh is simply the Arabic word for God. Christian Arabs pray to Allah when using their native tongue. When someone refers to the God whom Muslims worship as Allah when writing in English, they are denyng that the God of Islam is the same monotheistic God worshipped by Jews and Christians and implying Allah is a different god (note the small g).

This is un-Islamic and, strangely, a disturbing practice shared by non-Muslim westerners who insist that Islam is a barbaric religion and strident Muslims who aim to show how special their religion is relative to the religions of the west, even as they are all rooted in the same semitic monotheism.

Wrong.Wrong.Wrong. Muslims are encouraged to use "Allah" just as they are encouraged to greet one another as "Salaam" instead of saying "Peace".

We worship the same God as Jews and Christians (except Christians today think Jesus IS God but we do not). We are always encouraged to use the Arabic word whenever possible. It is more complete, less likely to cause confusion. In fact, all our prayers are in Arabic too, every word of it.

Using a different word for God when speaking in English implies a different god. I don't know who is doing this encouraging, but it is a very negative development. This is quite different from saying Salaam for peace because salaam does not imply a different peace.

Dropping in a phrase in Arabic using Allah when speaking English is fine: Inshallah is a particularly useful one. This is like using a Latin phrase that has gained currency in English like "carpe diem."

Surely you see the irony that the only non-Muslim westerners who refer to the God Muslims worship as Allah are virulently anti-Islamic and seek to distance Islam from their own religion by implying the god Muslims worship is not the god Christians and Jews worship and implying Muslims are not monotheistic as they are. When Muslims, speaking in English, use Allah they are similarly implying their god is not God, the monotheistic entity widely worshipped by English speaking people. And they are encouraging the Islamaphobes by adopting their practice of using Allah instead of God.

I use the terms interchangeably, as do many. Another reason for using "Allah" is to let other DCUM readers, who may find it hard to follow who's saying what here, know which post is written by the Muslims and which posts are written by the islamophobes. And when it comes to islamophobes, yes, Muslims will want to distinguish themselves from nonMuslims if they are islamophobes.

PP is correct about the use of Allah in English. I worked for an English language newspaper in the Arab world. It was Muslim owned and the chief editor, who was highly educated, was also Muslim. Using Allah to speak about the deity worshipped by Muslims was considered an error of basic theology and an egregious error of word usage. It's use was strictly prohibited on editorial grounds, but also on the grounds that an English language paper in that country had to be extra careful about appearing to spread heretical views about Islam.

For this reason, when one year it was decided to grant a national holiday on Muhammed's birthday, the chief editor excised from the ministry of religious affairs' press release that appeared in the paper the sentence that said, "Muhammed's birth was a miracle," which is absolutely contrary to Islamic theology.

For the record, the word in English for the monotheistic deity is God. When one speaks generically of a deity that is part of a pantheistic pantheon, the word is god (lower case g). If one is speaking of a particular polytheistic deity, the name is capitalized as in Rama, Zeus, and Isis. Any name for a deity that is capitalized other than God denotes a polytheistic deity in conventional written English.

It's a serious charge, to accuse people of being Islamophobes who spread fallacies about Islam. I am personally offended at the implication that I or other posters here are Islamophobes, when I feel all we've done is disagree with you.

If you make this charge, you need to have a reason for doing so.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, Muslima. And with that, I leave to go pray Jumuah prayer.

Don't forget to pray for me !

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Salam,

I think she knows that Islam is different from the West. I think both the PP and I are comfortable in the fact that we do not need approval from the West, that's why we choose to be and stay Muslims and live this life, after all Islam is a life choice and only those who choose it adhere to its teachings. Yes to us our religion and to them theirs but fallacies were being said about Islam. The issue at stake was the misrepresentation of Islam and Muslim Women. I agree that the discussion could have been more mature and our adab was less than islamic at times but PP did apologize for her behavior., so now it rests between her and her lord. When we have differences, we must not forget that it does not take away from our primary bonds of Iman, so let's all close this chapter and move on, wa salaam.

Muslima, please point out a fallacy somebody has said about Islam. Yes, we know that a month ago one poster called Mohammed a pedophile, and that was really bad, but that doesn't explain any of the recent behavior from you or the other Muslim PP.

A lot of the disagreements concern statements you, Muslima, made first: that women are "equal" in Islam, that Islam treats female captives well, that converts are rising faster than immigrants, and that Islam gave voting rights to women 1400 years ago. You said were the first to raise these issues, don't you agree? Then, naturally, people asked you for evidence, and then they disagreed with your evidence.

Where are the "fallacies?" Please show us some.

Sorry, but i am done with this discussion, I have moved on . I am not going to point/rehash anything, we have pages of pages of that. I have officially recused myself from this discussion, in other words I am done. Wa Salaam

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Salam,

I think she knows that Islam is different from the West. I think both the PP and I are comfortable in the fact that we do not need approval from the West, that's why we choose to be and stay Muslims and live this life, after all Islam is a life choice and only those who choose it adhere to its teachings. Yes to us our religion and to them theirs but fallacies were being said about Islam. The issue at stake was the misrepresentation of Islam and Muslim Women. I agree that the discussion could have been more mature and our adab was less than islamic at times but PP did apologize for her behavior., so now it rests between her and her lord. When we have differences, we must not forget that it does not take away from our primary bonds of Iman, so let's all close this chapter and move on, wa salaam.

Muslima, please point out a fallacy somebody has said about Islam. Yes, we know that a month ago one poster called Mohammed a pedophile, and that was really bad, but that doesn't explain any of the recent behavior from you or the other Muslim PP.

A lot of the disagreements concern statements you, Muslima, made first: that women are "equal" in Islam, that Islam treats female captives well, that converts are rising faster than immigrants, and that Islam gave voting rights to women 1400 years ago. You said were the first to raise these issues, don't you agree? Then, naturally, people asked you for evidence, and then they disagreed with your evidence.

Where are the "fallacies?" Please show us some.

Nasty Little Muslima here. Lets not rehash. Friday is a very important day for Muslims and its best to simply talk about the points about Islam you want to understand. Lets stick to that rather than beginning yet another argument on whether facts were misrepresented. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Thanks, Muslima. And with that, I leave to go pray Jumuah prayer.

Muslima wrote:

Salam,

I think she knows that Islam is different from the West. I think both the PP and I are comfortable in the fact that we do not need approval from the West, that's why we choose to be and stay Muslims and live this life, after all Islam is a life choice and only those who choose it adhere to its teachings. Yes to us our religion and to them theirs but fallacies were being said about Islam. The issue at stake was the misrepresentation of Islam and Muslim Women. I agree that the discussion could have been more mature and our adab was less than islamic at times but PP did apologize for her behavior., so now it rests between her and her lord. When we have differences, we must not forget that it does not take away from our primary bonds of Iman, so let's all close this chapter and move on, wa salaam.

Muslima, please point out a fallacy somebody has said about Islam. Yes, we know that a month ago one poster called Mohammed a pedophile, and that was really bad, but that doesn't explain any of the recent behavior from you or the other Muslim PP.

A lot of the disagreements concern statements you, Muslima, made first: that women are "equal" in Islam, that Islam treats female captives well, that converts are rising faster than immigrants, and that Islam gave voting rights to women 1400 years ago. You said were the first to raise these issues, don't you agree? Then, naturally, people asked you for evidence, and then they disagreed with your evidence.

Where are the "fallacies?" Please show us some.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From your last post, you think it's OK to tell people they have STDs if they DID mock you?

No, its not okay. In Islam it is better not to retaliate with mockery even if our offenders mock us. I am not the most pious Muslim because of my temper. Hopefully I can learn to react to mockery in the future in better ways befitting of pious Muslims.

You can be pious but flawed. God didn't make perfect people and we're all works in progress. That's a big point in Christianity, at least, and I suspect in Islam too.

Some other day and on some other thread, we'll have to talk about choice, free will and atonement

Finally, something we can agree on. It is part of our human nature that we sin and that we commit mistakes But this is so that we can return to Allah (to repent) & seek His forgiveness.The prophet saw said "I swear by the One in whose hand is my soul, if you did not commit sins, Allah would have surely gotten rid of all of you, and He would have surely brought another people who would commit sins , so that they would then seek Allah’s forgiveness (for their sins) & so He would forgive them.” So one of the purposes of our very existence, is so that we can constantly do Tawbah ( repent) to Allah.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know which sura/verse Muslima quoted but if its the one about a woman declaring her oath of allegiance to the Prophet, that is often used in support of the fact that Islam granted women political choices and their opinion counted. It may not show "voting" rights per se, but it shows women were granted the right to align themselves with whatever ruler they wanted. This verse shows they were politically relevant.

So you've just agreed it's not about voting per se. Why did you two get angry when people say that? The surah she quoted as "giving women voting rights" is not about them at all. It's about women (Muslim women!) from a warring tribe being able to join Muslims in Medina if they meet a very long list of conditions. They have to :

a) be strict monotheists (do not associate anything with Allah)
b) not steal
c) not sleep with anyone they're not supposed to
d) not kill their children
e) not slander
f) not have children with someone else and pretend it's their husbands, and
e) be disobedient.

And if all of these conditions are met, they are allowed to move to Medina where Muhammad ruled.

I don't see anything approaching voting rights in this. It's a background check for new immigrants. Have you ever heard of any preconditions for voting? Are MEN ever asked to prove any of this before pledging allegiance?

Mind you, I'm agnostic on whether Islam gives women voting rights or not. Who knows what it does. What we can say with certainty that the particular verse posted in support of this notion does at all extend women the right to vote in this particular verse. Why do you get angry when this is pointed out?

That verse Muslima quoted is often quoted to show that Islam made women's political allegiances and oaths relevant. No one compelled them to take the oath. And their oath counted. Contrast this with how women were typically regarded at the time in other cultures and in pre Islamic times or even in the US until recently. In other cultures and in pre Islamic times, women's political opinions, oaths, allegiances were irrelevant, only their husbands or fathers political opinions, oaths, or allegiances counted or mattered.

A political oath or allegiance may or may not be a vote. If the individual seeking power has yet to acquire that power, the political oaths of others to him IS very much like a vote. If enough people give that individual their political oath, he will attain power. If, however, that individual already acquired power, and has become the new ruler, political oaths of people may be similar to a request for citizenship, or a request for asylum, or a show of yet more votes that would ensure keeping that individual in office.

For example, when it was clear that Obama won the Presidential election in his first term, the rest of the remaining ballots were still counted and were still relevant. The total count of ballots represents the degree of support Obama had.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
First of all, there is no proof you are indeed a Muslim. Where were you before when the islamophobes were attacking Islam and we could have used another knowledgeable person to help explain things to them? Instead, you sat like a potted plant and watched this drama like you were watching a soap opera. Now suddenly, you find it necessary to speak up, not to criticize those who trashed your faith, but to criticize the fellow Muslim defending it? Sorry, but you are very likely not a Muslim. Second, I do have islamic adab. But Muslims are not required to remain silent in the face of mockery and insults. I said I would stop the insults and mockery if they would agree to do the same. Immediately thereafter, they slew more insults, then asking Muslima to post a pic of herself in veil to garner public sympathy. Sorry, if you were a Muslim with strong feelings for your faith, you would have protested then.

There is no proof YOU are a Muslim, either.

I don't think there is any point in arguing the superiority of our way of life to non-Muslims. Islam IS different from the West, we live our lives by different rules, values and philosophy. We are not required to be the same as the West, understood by the West, or approved by the West. I am secure in this knowledge and conduct the affairs of my family in that way. I am comfortable in accepting that Islam sees women and men differently from the West, that we raise our children differently, that we see the world differently. I am comfortable explaining it, but if someone disagrees or doesn't like it, that's their prerogative. To me, my religion, and to them, theirs. This is how we do things. There is no need for anyone to agree with our ways. I am not dependent on approval or understanding of Westerners. You think you defend Islam by your behavior here but all you do is make it look bad by slinging personal insults. This is not how Muslims are supposed to behave. If you were my daughter, I'd be embarrassed.

Salam,

I think she knows that Islam is different from the West. I think both the PP and I are comfortable in the fact that we do not need approval from the West, that's why we choose to be and stay Muslims and live this life, after all Islam is a life choice and only those who choose it adhere to its teachings. Yes to us our religion and to them theirs but fallacies were being said about Islam. The issue at stake was the misrepresentation of Islam and Muslim Women. I agree that the discussion could have been more mature and our adab was less than islamic at times but PP did apologize for her behavior., so now it rests between her and her lord. When we have differences, we must not forget that it does not take away from our primary bonds of Iman, so let's all close this chapter and move on, wa salaam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From your last post, you think it's OK to tell people they have STDs if they DID mock you?

No, its not okay. In Islam it is better not to retaliate with mockery even if our offenders mock us. I am not the most pious Muslim because of my temper. Hopefully I can learn to react to mockery in the future in better ways befitting of pious Muslims.

You can be pious but flawed. God didn't make perfect people and we're all works in progress. That's a big point in Christianity, at least, and I suspect in Islam too.

Some other day and on some other thread, we'll have to talk about choice, free will and atonement

Anonymous wrote:

By all means, hate Islam if you wish. That is fine. That was never the issue. The issue was misrepresentation.

Hate is a strong word. Disagreeing with something doesn't mean you hate it. I don't think there is any argument over facts; there is an argument over qualitative judgment calls of these acts. The package of rights/responsibilities Islam provides to women and men is black and white; it's not subject to debate. Whether you want to call these packages equal or not is a judgment call, it's not a fact. They may appear to have equal value to you. Someone else may find them to be of unequal value. It's not a fact-based decision. It's a decision based on judgment calls, and those cannot be argued. If someone doesn't see these packages as equal, it doesn't mean they have any emotion toward Islam at all. They just happen to disagree with your assessment of what is provided. That again is their prerogative.

Anonymous wrote:From your last post, you think it's OK to tell people they have STDs if they DID mock you?

No, its not okay. In Islam it is better not to retaliate with mockery even if our offenders mock us. I am not the most pious Muslim because of my temper. Hopefully I can learn to react to mockery in the future in better ways befitting of pious Muslims.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, I'm just an ignorant, barefoot, veiled Muslim gal. Can you explain to me what it means to be a very American woman? Does it mean she's wearing a baseball cap, her boyfriend's boxers, a nose ring, a few tattoos, and eating apple pie? ??

Appalling. Not as bad as your disgusting STD jab, but this is still shameful.

Be prepared, my dear. If you mock Muslims, I will do the same to you.

I never mocked you. You are confusing me with another poster. I did call you appalling, just now, and I think that's accurate.

You, on the other hand, just made a sweeping condemnation of ALL Western women, especially with your stupidity about Western women and STDs. Congrats, you gave readers a worse impression of Muslims than 5 Islamophobes could in a week.

My apologies if you never mocked Muslims. Its hard to know who said what here, since everyone is anonymous.

No one here mocked MUSLIMS as people. They disagree with Islamic rules. That's their prerogative.

By all means, hate Islam if you wish. That is fine. That was never the issue. The issue was misrepresentation.