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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

Well given that you guys probably sneer at large state schools as much as you sneer at public high schools, this shouldn't be a problem, no?

grow up and don't be an a$$ in the midst of a reasonable discussion.

I'm not the one tearing into public school kids for taking lots of APs because my little flower didn't get into Yale. Grow up yourself.

I don't know who you're responding to but it's not me.

I'm the pp who suggested Big 3's find a way to weight some classes; I've been reasonable. I've also been pushing back, hard, on the idea that public school kids are all lazy slackers, their APs don't stack up to anything GDS or Sidwell offers, their GPAs reflect nothing more than grade inflation, and they're unprepared for rigorous colleges. So yes, I snapped after hours of that.

I feel sorry for private school kids who are disappointed this round.

I'm not sorry for the private school parents who spent today blaming public school kids and everybody else. Instead of acknowledging the fact that their kids lost out to their own classmates who were better connected or simply had better applications. Or acknowledging that they paid $50k/year for what sounds like child abuse, if it's even true.

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

Which might entail a whole re-thinking of the private school modus operandi, tbh. I don't buy that private school kids work harder than college-bound kids in public schools who are taking 6-8-10 APs. But in public schools, it's the 6-8-10 APs that separate these kids from the rest who are taking lower-pressure honors classes. In public schools, Honors English and AP English are two very different animals, and that's what justifies the higher weights for AP classes.

Maybe even the top privates need to find tracks for kids who don't want to kill themselves and know they're not going to win the dogfight to get into Yale anyway. Harvard used to have a "happy bottom quarter." The kids who want to grind the hardest classes, like the public school kids taking all those APs, get their classes weighted accordingly.

They do that. At Sidwell, it's done very well.

In my experience this was true at GDS as well.

when do they start differentiating? NCS only starts differentiation in 11th grade except for math. Everyone takes the same English, history, Science and 90% take the same level of languages in 9th and 10th.

But NCS does have different langauge levels right? The Classic vs. Modern tracks? But I suppose most people stay on the track that leads to the AP. I think that GDS, which does have levelling in Science starting in 10th grade, does a good job of steering kinds into levels where they are more likely to succeed and giving them confidence that they will find a good college where they will thrive even if they reduce their rigor. But they will steer a student away from a class where they think the student will not succeed. This is anecdotal, but it seems like at NCS a much higher proportion of the class takes AP sciences and AP calc. Those classes are harder and GPAs can be harmed, but it feels like the students feel like they have to take them. GDS never felt that way.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting state of affairs. Looks like HYPS and the like are still mainlining kids from certain privates - Phillips Exeter, Andover, Dalton, Harvard-Westlake etc. Maybe ten schools. And everywhere else, an "elite" expensive private high school is a significant disadvantage in admissions unless the kid is an URM or recruited athlete in crew, lacrosse or something obscure like squash or fencing.

The college world is asunder. Plan accordingly.

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

Which might entail a whole re-thinking of the private school modus operandi, tbh. I don't buy that private school kids work harder than college-bound kids in public schools who are taking 6-8-10 APs. But in public schools, it's the 6-8-10 APs that separate these kids from the rest who are taking lower-pressure honors classes. In public schools, Honors English and AP English are two very different animals, and that's what justifies the higher weights for AP classes.

Maybe even the top privates need to find tracks for kids who don't want to kill themselves and know they're not going to win the dogfight to get into Yale anyway. Harvard used to have a "happy bottom quarter." The kids who want to grind the hardest classes, like the public school kids taking all those APs, get their classes weighted accordingly.

They do that. At Sidwell, it's done very well.

In my experience this was true at GDS as well.

when do they start differentiating? NCS only starts differentiation in 11th grade except for math. Everyone takes the same English, history, Science and 90% take the same level of languages in 9th and 10th.

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

Well given that you guys probably sneer at large state schools as much as you sneer at public high schools, this shouldn't be a problem, no?

grow up and don't be an a$$ in the midst of a reasonable discussion.

I'm not the one tearing into public school kids for taking lots of APs because my little flower didn't get into Yale. Grow up yourself.

I don't know who you're responding to but it's not me.

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

Which might entail a whole re-thinking of the private school modus operandi, tbh. I don't buy that private school kids work harder than college-bound kids in public schools who are taking 6-8-10 APs. But in public schools, it's the 6-8-10 APs that separate these kids from the rest who are taking lower-pressure honors classes. In public schools, Honors English and AP English are two very different animals, and that's what justifies the higher weights for AP classes.

Maybe even the top privates need to find tracks for kids who don't want to kill themselves and know they're not going to win the dogfight to get into Yale anyway. Harvard used to have a "happy bottom quarter." The kids who want to grind the hardest classes, like the public school kids taking all those APs, get their classes weighted accordingly.

They do that. At Sidwell, it's done very well.

In my experience this was true at GDS as well.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

Which might entail a whole re-thinking of the private school modus operandi, tbh. I don't buy that private school kids work harder than college-bound kids in public schools who are taking 6-8-10 APs. But in public schools, it's the 6-8-10 APs that separate these kids from the rest who are taking lower-pressure honors classes. In public schools, Honors English and AP English are two very different animals, and that's what justifies the higher weights for AP classes.

Maybe even the top privates need to find tracks for kids who don't want to kill themselves and know they're not going to win the dogfight to get into Yale anyway. Harvard used to have a "happy bottom quarter." The kids who want to grind the hardest classes, like the public school kids taking all those APs, get their classes weighted accordingly.

They do that. At Sidwell, it's done very well.

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Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to be primarily about GDS. Is Sidwell similar or STA/NCS?

Also, how does GDS address the needs of families who are seeking need based and merit aid? Do they allow those families to apply more broadly? DC is on considerable FA at another school and I would not be ok if DC had to limit options for matching with a school with adequate funding because of arbitrary school rules.

The NCS process is much more transparent and you have access to more data. That does not mean everyone at NCS is thrilled with their outcomes or with the process, but having been through it at both schools, we found the NCS approach less stressful. There are very few scenarios where having less information is better than having more information.

You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS.
Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin.
Not throwing shade at these schools. They are excellent but lots of kids who had a more chill HS experience also end up at the same place. How is the stress and crazy amount of work at top high schools like GDS and NCS worth it?

Bates parent here from a highly regarded DMV public school. Your mindset is 1990s. The median GPA for my kid's HS for Bates was 4.6w. Wisconsin is a similarly tough admit nowadays. None of the kids who go to these schools from the DC area had a "chill HS experience." Sorry that your kid has to slum with mine, we're very glad that we chose not to put our kids in overpriced mediocre privates only to end up in the exact same place as hardworking public school kids. Hope your kid didn't inherit your sense of entitlement.

Is your highly regarded public school in MoCo? because if it is, everyone is aware now of the unlimited retakes, the C + B = A as the final grade, and equity-driven GPA outcomes. I'm not saying your kid isn't deserving. I am saying that any moderately intelligent kid attending at MoCo HS will emerge with a 4.2w or better just by breathing.

This is not the case at GDS, NCS, STA and especially Sidwell, where two English teachers will not give As. To anyone.

I don’t understand why you are being rude. C +B = B in MCPS. It does not equal an A. I agree that there is grade inflation in MCPS but the kids work hard. If you have a problem with the English teachers at Sidwell, you should try to address it at your school rather than trying to feel better by insulting MCPS. Some of the MCPS teachers are also pretty stingy with As.

Unless you've had a kid at GDS, NCS, etc, you can't say they're comparable. They're not. My kid is on a sports team with all MCPS kids who take the hardest classes, very high GPAs, etc, and they don't work even half as hard as their counterparts in top privates. Not saying they're not smart, but their high school experience is absolutely chill in comparison.

My kid went to Jackson Reed and is now at an Ivy. She took 6 APs junior year and almost had a breakdown because there was so much work. She was up until 2am every night. She also had multiple intensive activities that required a lot of time. I’m not saying that JR is as good as GDS but there are some dynamite kids there and I’m sure MCPS is the same. JR still does rankings and my daughter was not even top 5. Every school, public and private, has some amazing kids. And they are all competing for the same schools

Yes, my kids came out of DCPS and many of their friends are at JR and some are very impressive. However, being up well past midnight is par for the course for the baseline (not AP) course in even 9th and 10th grade at some of these Big3 schools. Then 6 APs would be impossible. My kids' schools give 1.5 hours a night per AP course. That ends would be 9 hours of homework nightly if a kid took 6 APs.

I think what the frustration is, is that the Big private school kids are doing the equivalent of your daughter's JR course load every year for 4 years, getting a mixture of As and Bs (because many teachers simply don't give As) and then have no chance in hell of the Ivies or (as of 2023) any school in the top 40.

If I had to do this again, I may not have moved them and we would have stuck with JR. Their high school years have trained them to be phenomenal students but their options for college have really narrowed by our choice to move them from DCPS to private.

This isn't true, at least for 9th and 10th--I know kids at Sidwell and NCS. To the extent it's true for the rare kid out there, after factoring in ECs, it's child abuse. And you paid $50k a year for it.

Your point about APs isn't clear. APs are a form of credentialing, where the public school kids are proving they learned the material inside and out. Kids at a Big 3 don't need that credentialing, which is why we all know that college admissions counselors don't expect as many AP classes from private school kids as from public school kids. Equally, you need to stop complaining that public school kids who took 12 APs didn't learn anything.

My kids in MCPS had teachers that wouldn't give A's either. For example, in AP Calc II. And the colleges' regional reps understand this and have already factored it in. So no using continuing to complain about it.

Also, to the RMIB booster: few kids at RMIB are gunning for MIT, instead they want ivies, and anyway RMIB with the international baccalaureate isn't a fertile ground for MIT to recruit in.

Bottom line: colleges are no longer simply accepting kids with "solid grades" and "solid ECs" and top test scores because you could afford to prep them up the wazoo. Your kid needs top grades (unweighted GPA, and factoring in what the admissions reps know about your school's grading policies) and to knock the ECs out of the ballpark with state and preferably national recognition (like my kid did, coming from public).
- A dozen APs aren't a boost except as credentialing, as pointed out above (and the weighting for APs doesn't change anything because most top colleges take your kid's transcript apart and run it through their own weighting schemes).
- Legacy is no longer a hook at most colleges unless your legacy kid with "solid ECs" comes with a huge donation.
- Being able to pay for intensive test prep from junior year (we know one private school family who did this from HS freshman year) is no longer a boost in a test-optional environment.

How hypocritical if the goal is equity. Do you have any idea how expensive ECs are to participate in? How most kids have zero access to scientific research or whatever? Test scores are the most equitable thing out there. Poor kids are working at Burger King after school as their EC.

No, test scores reflect expensive and tailored tutoring (we've been there), and poor kids are stuck with the generic once-a-week-for-one-month tutoring their HS offers. But you know this....

Colleges love kids that worked after school instead of flying their horse around the country. If you put work in your application, combined with great grades and recs, it's like admissions gold. But you know this....

Lots of public schools have practically free athletic options, even crew at several MCPS schools. DC's ivy had lots of football and baseball recruits. Not everything has to be about fencing (we've also been there). But you know this....

Oh yeah colleges are falling all over themselves for the kids with good grades who went to rough schools and worked at BK after school.

This is a fantasy to make yourself feel better.

This is how the world works these days. You added the part about "rough schools" and those kids do face extra hurdles. But yes, U Penn will take a Montgomery Blair kid who worked 4-6 hrs/day to support their family and save for college over your pampered kid with "solid ECs" in a heartbeat.

No they won’t, because that Montgomery Blair kid will not have the grades/classes to even get a second look. The myth that poor/first-gen kids waltz into top colleges because of URM preferences is just that- a myth. The very few extraordinary kids who work substantial PT jobs and take APs and get great grades? Sure. But it is extremely hard to do that. “Poor” kids are not just like your kid except poor.

But if a poor kid excels academically, yes they will take the one who works a job and had to struggle to excel academically vs your rich kid who has every privilege in the world. I'm ok with that. They get to make a choice between two really (and equally) smart kids. That "poor" kid who gets in is just as smart as your kid, but they had to work hard and didn't get to play travel soccer or fencing or name the EC. Instead they had to work a job, or take care of an ailing family member, etc. They have overcome a lot in life to get to that point. Your kid had life handed to them, relatively speaking. And your kid will do fine wherever they go with their support system. For that kid, getting into a great college will be life changing.

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

Well given that you guys probably sneer at large state schools as much as you sneer at public high schools, this shouldn't be a problem, no?

grow up and don't be an a$$ in the midst of a reasonable discussion.

I'm not the one tearing into public school kids for taking lots of APs because my little flower didn't get into Yale. Grow up yourself.

Anonymous wrote:The new equity focused regimes at top schools driving this insanity is having a positive effect on schools in the next tier. They are getting better students (Asian kids, mostly.) In the long run, this will end up democratizing higher ed and lower the relative advantages of the top names. We are seeing this at our firm; Harvard ain’t what it used to be (worse on average), and neither is William and Mary (better on average). Troll away on this post but it’s reality.

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

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Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

I grew up in DC and went to a big 3, then lived 30 years in Michigan; you’re dreaming if you expect that huge Big 10 universities are treating your snowflake’s app with TLC. Impossible with the number of undergrads they matriculate. And they’re hounded by locals complaining about high out-of-state attendance.

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Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

Which might entail a whole re-thinking of the private school modus operandi, tbh. I don't buy that private school kids work harder than college-bound kids in public schools who are taking 6-8-10 APs. But in public schools, it's the 6-8-10 APs that separate these kids from the rest who are taking lower-pressure honors classes. In public schools, Honors English and AP English are two very different animals, and that's what justifies the higher weights for AP classes.

Maybe even the top privates need to find tracks for kids who don't want to kill themselves and know they're not going to win the dogfight to get into Yale anyway. Harvard used to have a "happy bottom quarter." The kids who want to grind the hardest classes, like the public school kids taking all those APs, get their classes weighted accordingly.

They do that. At Sidwell, it's done very well.

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Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow- I went to a TT SLAC in the 90s from NCS with a similar GPA and a 1480 SAT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS. Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin. “

I am an NCS parent of a senior. We would be dancing on the rooftops if our DD got into Wisconsin. It was a rejection. We are looking at options much, much lower on the USNWR list. Think 75-120.

what is your child's approx. GPA? NCS parent here.

GPA is 3.4. ACT is 33

That truly sucks. All the grade inflation at public schools and test optional is so frustrating.

This is so tone deaf. You realize that “back in the day,” elite colleges only let in certain types of people (originally WASP-Y men from certain families and high schools). Broadening access to a wider swath of kids is a GOOD thing for the colleges and for the country vs having something more like an oligarchy of access. Private school kids do not need MORE protection and benefits. They are going to be fine.

-parent of private school kid who didn’t have a great college outcome

I don’t need a lesson from you about “back in the day”, but thanks private school parent. I was first gen to go to college from LM family. No one said anything about protections or benefits. A meritocracy should be the goal. Not for public schools to inflate grades so that a 4.0 has no more meaning.

So in other words, you want to pull down the ladder behind you.

Not at all. I don’t think my kid should be up against MCPS kids who get Bs and then “show improvement” and all of a sudden it’s an A. Give me a break.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I imagine your implication is that public schools hand out As like candy. While there is grade inflation, a lot of it is at the lower end so that kids who are failing actually end up graduating. Some easy electives like Tech, Forensics or a class like PE\Health do give out easy As but generally Honors and AP classes are very teacher dependent. Some of the teachers are very tough even in public school. College admissions officers are not completely dumb by the way. They look at a 3.8 GPA from Sidwell very differently than a 3.8 GPA from public school

This was our experience. Tech and PE/Health were required, but you only took them in semesters when your scheduled was heavily loaded up on APs. My kids had teachers who were stingy with As, too.

Yes but in MCPS the letter grades from each quarter are averaged. You can get an 89.5 quarter one (A) and a 79.5 quarter two (B) and you get a 4.0 (A). A 4.0!!!!

At NCS percentages are averaged. So at NCS an 89.5 first quarter and a 79.5 second quarter is averaged to a 84.5 which is a straight B. or a 3.0. A MASSIVE difference in GPA despite the kid getting the IDENTICAL percentages each quarter as the MCPS kid.

Can you see how much harder it is to do well under the NCS system???

Do you think UMD's admissions officers aren't aware of this? Even if the first cut is AI, there will be a flag for the type of school. This is admissions 101.

Honestly, it doesn't appear there is any sort of flag this year.

NCS kids with less than a 3.5 (or thereabouts) are getting screened out of most if not all state schools.

They're getting rejected at MD, TN, CO, SC, etc. etc.

Apparently these large schools are using software that don't take into account the rigor or the grading. They see 3.3 and the application gets put in the "no" pile on the first read.

DONE. REJECTED.

Well given that you guys probably sneer at large state schools as much as you sneer at public high schools, this shouldn't be a problem, no?

grow up and don't be an a$$ in the midst of a reasonable discussion.