Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do two classrooms not have doors? I can't even picture that? Its must be so noisy.

I grew up going to what was called an "open space" elementary school. It was one huge area per grade, blocked off with bookshelves and filing cabinets. No doors anywhere. When I drive by that school in my hometown, I often wonder what it's like on the inside now. I can't imagine anything like that as a school now.

I was at a school like that! 4 classes in one huge room just as you describe.

What was the reason for open classrooms? What were they thinking?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_classroom

Not that. The lawyer made it sound like the shooter kid was harmed or a victim in this while situation.

I suspect that the parents fought alternative placement.
I wonder if we will ever hear the true story of why he was there.

Children are not born evil.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a harrowing account of the day in today's WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/richneck-elementary-school-shooting-timeline-warnings/

How could that school admin not take this seriously given the child's history?

It gives me a lot of concern because my DC's school had an incident this week with one child choking another on the playground, then destroying the classroom he was put into to calm down. Next day, the kid was back at school like nothing ever happened. I'm sure there is much, much more to this story than I'm aware (my DC is not in that grade), but it frankly terrifies me something like this could be his next move.

From the article:

"James Ellenson, an attorney for the family of the 6-year-old boy, declined to comment directly on the new reporting but said in a statement that Newport News schools “had a duty to protect all the parties involved, especially the child who needed to be protected from himself.”"

Uh, no, the district did NOT have a responsibility to protect the boy from himself. That's on THE RECKLESS PARENTS. Jesus.

Totally agree but what else would you expect from the attorney for the family?

Not that. The lawyer made it sound like the shooter kid was harmed or a victim in this while situation.

What was the reason for open classrooms? What were they thinking?

Senior citizen here. Began teaching first grade in early '70's. The "goal" was to have instruction to also be open--set up 'learning centers" within the classroom. Not only that, but you were supposed to let the child choose what to do. I went through a workshop for this when I first began teaching taught by the local university. I learned some good ideas about "centers," but, to use it as your teaching method is just not workable in a class of 25-30 kids. I taught with a woman who had gone through Dewey training in the '30's in NC. (also sort of an open concept) As she told me, "it didn't work then, and it won't work now." She was correct.

But, the schools were designed for team teaching and the open classroom. Once designs get into the system, it is hard to change things. Just look at the current schools.

It is nice to have flexibility, but you also need structure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The way I read the story was that the day of the shooting was the first day that the parent wasn’t scheduled to attend with the child — as if it was a planned step down of that accommodation. If that’s the case, it’s crazy to me that an aide wasn’t placed in the classroom for at least a transitional period. You don’t remove a support like that all of a sudden with no scaffolding.

I’m also wondering about the trigger lock on the gun. I don’t know how those work but it sounded like he needed to steal his mom’s key to unlock it? Is it a physical key?

I also wonder if the child was adopted from an orphanage or severely abusive home — its just so unusual to have a child this disturbed at this young an age that I suspect there is some story of deep trauma there, or a physical injury to the brain. I initially assumed the home itself was abusive but if the parents were invested enough to be attending school daily, that seems less likely.

The school made so many bad decisions here.

No look at this documentary it's quite common

https://youtu.be/n-B_kmAebbQ

I literally cried for those kids. Incredibly incredibly sad. How did our country come to this? What happened? and that is just one tiny bit of the problem, and one tiny bit of the total number of kids that are messed up.

A few observations from a teacher:
1) note that even within this program, there are different levels of aggressive behavior with the result that a student who may be trying on a particular day to do the right thing is surrounded by classmates who are not and that can be triggering. It’s not even about peer pressure, but literally, how hearing threats and even just cursing raises your own cortisol levels. That bus ride alone probably puts these kids on edge and they go from that to a pat down. Even if they are compliant, they must be wondering what happens if a resisting peer next to them pulls out a weapon.
2) some of the adults clearly escalated situations by entering power struggles with children over petty stuff.
3) the boy with the pencil sharpener clearly is seeking the teacher’s attention. Ignoring him is the wrong move here. Give a simple acknowledgment and redirect, for God’s sake. “Good morning. How’s it going? Looks like your pencil is really sharp now and you are ready to learn. I’m going to call on you in two more problem so be ready. Do you need anything else?” Also, remove the pencil sharper or bolt it to the wall on the opposite side of the room from the board so that a student isn’t able to distract everyone while you are modeling at the board. I had mine removed over a similar issue. Instead I have a pencil exchange. Students drop off a dull pencil and pick up a sharp one. I sharpen maybe 50 pencils each day. No power struggles with students over when they can sharpen.
4) this school of last resort was still calmer than the hallways of the middle school where I teach. Not just during the change of classes, but because of large groups of students cutting class who roam around disrupting instruction because they run, scream, bang on lockers and classroom doors, fight, vandalize bathrooms, and blast music or videos on their phones. We have two security guards for nearly 900 kids and need at least three more to cover out building.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do two classrooms not have doors? I can't even picture that? Its must be so noisy.

I grew up going to what was called an "open space" elementary school. It was one huge area per grade, blocked off with bookshelves and filing cabinets. No doors anywhere. When I drive by that school in my hometown, I often wonder what it's like on the inside now. I can't imagine anything like that as a school now.

+1. Chevy Chase Elementary School was like this when I was there in the 80s.

I was at an open space school in the 1970s/early 80s. The idea was that the space could be reconfigured for all sorts of cool activities between disciplines and grade levels. Only, it never happened. However, the worse fight I saw in ES took place in the six square feet not blocked off by bookshelves and during it, a student threw a chair at another student and barely missed a teacher and some other kids.

Anonymous wrote:You are also forgetting that to Devos' took apart the discipline system that schools once had.

? Um, stop. DeVos rescinded the Obama-era discipline policies that Biden put back into effect.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2018/12/18/education-dept-safety-report-recommends-ending-discipline-policies-that-protect-students-of-color/?sh=70fd653a53db

Biden:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/07/19/school-discipline-special-ed-biden/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The school had no doors and there were no lock down drills. And he was only there for a half a day.

Wow.

I know that people are all like: parents should have a voice in their kids education. But it really sounds like the teachers should have a stronger voice. And I know that my IEP friends are going to be enraged about this: but if your kid is violent he really can’t be protected by an IEP anymore.

If your child was an adult, he would be tried for assault. If you think that your child’s aggressive behavior should be excused- you’re part of the problem.

And for goodness sake: teachers can’t hit a child back. They are not allowed because they can be sued for hitting a kid. Which is at this point a result of the parents being awful.

If your kid is strangling teachers or other kids: they should be suspended for a week and expelled with a second offense. I’m sorry: but if you can’t raise your kids to not be violent, then it isn’t the school systems responsibility to fix your kid. It’s yours.

The bolded is a reminder that most people have no idea what an IEP is. Including you, PP. It's not a pass on behavior. Nothing in an IEP indicates that a child is allowed to harm other kids. And the majority of violent, disruptive bullies aren't on IEPs. The problem has never been children on IEPs, as much as you don't like them. It's money. There are simply not enough resources available to give each child the education and support they need and everyone suffers. The federal government isn't funding its share of special education. There aren't enough teachers, and can you blame them? There isn't enough training or support. And for the children with the greatest needs, there aren't enough spaces in specialized schools. You get what you pay for in public education.

I call bs.

The kid has an acute disability and was allowed half day classes with a parent shadowing the entire time. That is most definitely a sign of an IEP.

And your experience might be different but based on my teacher friends, it’s not. It’s getting worse and parents aren’t teaching their kids how to behave or medicating their kids so that their brains normalize.

And no- not every IEP allows for violent behavior. The IEPs allows for “bandaids” to deal with the aggressive behavior vs actually medication or therapy.

And this kid: had a lot of bandaids before he shot a teacher.

Absolutely not. If anything , the allowances for this child show he did NOT and could not have had an IEP. Nothing about this setup was legal per an IEP which is a LEGAL document. Acute disability is not a category under IDEA. You do not get an IEP for “acute disability,” that is a made up lawyer and family term. Secondly, it is not legal per an IEP for parents to serve as a 1:1 aide as they are not sped certified. There was no IEP. There was a deal between the family and admin to keep him mainstream at risk to all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do two classrooms not have doors? I can't even picture that? Its must be so noisy.

I grew up going to what was called an "open space" elementary school. It was one huge area per grade, blocked off with bookshelves and filing cabinets. No doors anywhere. When I drive by that school in my hometown, I often wonder what it's like on the inside now. I can't imagine anything like that as a school now.

I was at a school like that! 4 classes in one huge room just as you describe.

What was the reason for open classrooms? What were they thinking?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a harrowing account of the day in today's WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/richneck-elementary-school-shooting-timeline-warnings/

How could that school admin not take this seriously given the child's history?

It gives me a lot of concern because my DC's school had an incident this week with one child choking another on the playground, then destroying the classroom he was put into to calm down. Next day, the kid was back at school like nothing ever happened. I'm sure there is much, much more to this story than I'm aware (my DC is not in that grade), but it frankly terrifies me something like this could be his next move.

From the article:

"James Ellenson, an attorney for the family of the 6-year-old boy, declined to comment directly on the new reporting but said in a statement that Newport News schools “had a duty to protect all the parties involved, especially the child who needed to be protected from himself.”"

Uh, no, the district did NOT have a responsibility to protect the boy from himself. That's on THE RECKLESS PARENTS. Jesus.

Totally agree but what else would you expect from the attorney for the family?

Anonymous wrote:This is a harrowing account of the day in today's WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/richneck-elementary-school-shooting-timeline-warnings/

How could that school admin not take this seriously given the child's history?

It gives me a lot of concern because my DC's school had an incident this week with one child choking another on the playground, then destroying the classroom he was put into to calm down. Next day, the kid was back at school like nothing ever happened. I'm sure there is much, much more to this story than I'm aware (my DC is not in that grade), but it frankly terrifies me something like this could be his next move.

From the article:

"James Ellenson, an attorney for the family of the 6-year-old boy, declined to comment directly on the new reporting but said in a statement that Newport News schools “had a duty to protect all the parties involved, especially the child who needed to be protected from himself.”"

Uh, no, the district did NOT have a responsibility to protect the boy from himself. That's on THE RECKLESS PARENTS. Jesus.

Anyone who is familiar with IEPs has never seen one that involved the parents coming to school with the kid every day. So I think it may be that the kid didn’t have an IEP and they were doing this weird unregulated stuff instead of what’s prescribed.

Sounds to me like the parents were not agreeing to alternative placement and this was a "compromise." I taught first grade in a pretty rough neighborhood with lots of "agressive" kids. But, they were manageable. I had to break up a lot of fights and had one child kick me in anger, but it was nothing like what has been described here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The school had no doors and there were no lock down drills. And he was only there for a half a day.

Wow.

I know that people are all like: parents should have a voice in their kids education. But it really sounds like the teachers should have a stronger voice. And I know that my IEP friends are going to be enraged about this: but if your kid is violent he really can’t be protected by an IEP anymore.

If your child was an adult, he would be tried for assault. If you think that your child’s aggressive behavior should be excused- you’re part of the problem.

And for goodness sake: teachers can’t hit a child back. They are not allowed because they can be sued for hitting a kid. Which is at this point a result of the parents being awful.

If your kid is strangling teachers or other kids: they should be suspended for a week and expelled with a second offense. I’m sorry: but if you can’t raise your kids to not be violent, then it isn’t the school systems responsibility to fix your kid. It’s yours.

The bolded is a reminder that most people have no idea what an IEP is. Including you, PP. It's not a pass on behavior. Nothing in an IEP indicates that a child is allowed to harm other kids. And the majority of violent, disruptive bullies aren't on IEPs. The problem has never been children on IEPs, as much as you don't like them. It's money. There are simply not enough resources available to give each child the education and support they need and everyone suffers. The federal government isn't funding its share of special education. There aren't enough teachers, and can you blame them? There isn't enough training or support. And for the children with the greatest needs, there aren't enough spaces in specialized schools. You get what you pay for in public education.

I call bs.

The kid has an acute disability and was allowed half day classes with a parent shadowing the entire time. That is most definitely a sign of an IEP.

And your experience might be different but based on my teacher friends, it’s not. It’s getting worse and parents aren’t teaching their kids how to behave or medicating their kids so that their brains normalize.

And no- not every IEP allows for violent behavior. The IEPs allows for “bandaids” to deal with the aggressive behavior vs actually medication or therapy.

And this kid: had a lot of bandaids before he shot a teacher.

Anyone who is familiar with IEPs has never seen one that involved the parents coming to school with the kid every day. So I think it may be that the kid didn’t have an IEP and they were doing this weird unregulated stuff instead of what’s prescribed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do two classrooms not have doors? I can't even picture that? Its must be so noisy.

I grew up going to what was called an "open space" elementary school. It was one huge area per grade, blocked off with bookshelves and filing cabinets. No doors anywhere. When I drive by that school in my hometown, I often wonder what it's like on the inside now. I can't imagine anything like that as a school now.

+1. Chevy Chase Elementary School was like this when I was there in the 80s.

I was a teacher and I am all for mainstreaming. This was not a case for mainstreaming.

And, the current policy of removing the class when you have a disruptive child instead of the child is ridiculous. A friend told me she had to do that sometimes mroe than once a day. That is a case for a child to be somewhere else. The kids are there to learn.