Yeah, I agree that Logan was not going to tell them more, and was only going to sweet talk them off the ledge, and that Kendall ultimately was motivated by revenge. However, my point is only that shiv and Roman were “sticking” with Kendall. It wasn’t Kendall’s idea. Kendall ended up in the same position he’d been in, and had nothing to lose, but he and Roman were the ones who backed shiv this time around. So now we’re at a point where all three kids have shown disloyalty to their father, but kendall and shiv in particular have spearheaded the initiatives- roman has not, yet, and will be interesting to see how that plays out for him next season.

PP here - ah yes, I see. And I agree. I think I just lumped them all in at the end as sticking together, but you are totally right, it was Shiv's idea and in the context of this show and this family, that's important. I definitely think Roman tries to worm his way back in and I think he will use Gerri to do it.

I have to think a lot of Season 4 has to be about Tom and Shiv. Someone pointed out upthread that Tom doesn't know Shiv saw the Logan shoulder pat and that seems to be true. I can see this going A LOT of ways. She's the only one that saw it. What happens if Tom and Logan totally deny it/gaslight her?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I didn't understand was Shiv's reaction when she realized Tom betrayed her. I expected her to be repulsed by him but instead she seemed to be intrigued.

Was there a hint of respect for him from her? She knows he helped Logan and will have some favor when the deal goes through. Is she hoping whatever good things come his way from Logan she will be able to parlay into an important spot?

Shiv also looked pregnant. She was shot from the side so many times and the dress made her look like she is already pregnant.

In the “Controlling the Narrative” short at the end, the writer said they filmed it multiple times, until they got a shot where Shiv realizes Tom betrayed her, and then she pulls on her “armor” and reacts like a Roy. I do think she looks at Tom with a new respect, but at the same time is devastated. Her look at the very end after she walks across the room is brilliant acting.

Did anyone else catch the similarities with the shot through the doorway to the end of The Godfather?

Yes, Tom = Fredo!

There is a lot of Godfather imagery, but Tom doesn't resemble Fredo. Fredo was always portrayed as slow and incapable but Tom is portrayed as competent. Con is the Fredo character, at least right now. Connor during his "I'm the oldest son!" tirade while poking the table with a butter knife mirrored Fredo's outburst when confronted by Michael "I'm smart!".

Anonymous wrote:Is Logan really trying to have a kid with Kerry? Since he’s dismissed the other kids, he needs a replacement.

I thought Shiv holding her abdomen in shock was interesting at the end.

The butter knife bit, “I’m the oldest son,” with Con was great. He’s completely neutered, no threat, just like a butter knife.

Monopoly cheating was illustrative. Tom being the dog playing piece was perfect.

What happened to Marcia??? I thought she was in control?!?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how I originally read the Greg/Tom scene one way when I thought Tom was going with Shiv, and then knowing Tom went the other way made it deeper. Like now Tom is married to Greg. And while Tom has at times been mean to Greg, he did totally offer to take the jail fall for him and so really HAS totally been the only one in the family to look out for him. Kendall pretended to but ultimately sold him out.

I also thought it was interesting how Logan wanted Kendall to leave at the beginning of the discussion. Would Logan have shared more of his real plans with Roman and Shiv if Kendall hadn’t been there, so the takeover would seem less dire? I mean, you KNOW Logan is not really ceding full control of his company, right, and has some ultimate plan to take it back? Would he have shared it if Kendall wasn’t there so Roman and Shiv would have willingly gone along?

Poor Roman. He lost the most here. Feel bad for him the most because he was almost human comforting Kendall and everything. The GoJo guy liked him, though, so I wonder if he is really as out as the other two.

That was a divide and conquer strategy. I don't think there are any more "real" plans other than what was revealed. Logan gets buckets of money and some enduring company presence because his name's on the building. If the kids would have gone with him they might have been thrown a bone/given a token role. Kendall is totally out and by sticking with Kendall they assured that they are also out.

Shiv is a terrible person and I don't feel bad for her, but she is really in a bad place.

They didn’t “stick with Kendall.” Kendall wanted no part of it- he just wanted out. He was going along at shivs urging. This was shiv who cajoled her siblings and was the mastermind this time, and she and Roman got defeated

They all got defeated. I'm the PP that replied to the bolded - I don't subscribe to the idea that Logan was inclined to tell the kids more. There was no more. He had already gone to a good deal of trouble to cut them out. Shiv and Roman had a chance to still be loyal. If he would have gotten the two of them alone he would have sweet-talked them into trusting him but he already put in motion the altering of their voting positions so no, he wasn't going to offer them "more."

And Kendall's only motivation was not that he wanted to get out. He also wanted revenge on his dad. If he wanted out he wouldn't have said anything about the super majority, which Roman and Shiv were not aware of.

Yeah, I agree that Logan was not going to tell them more, and was only going to sweet talk them off the ledge, and that Kendall ultimately was motivated by revenge. However, my point is only that shiv and Roman were “sticking” with Kendall. It wasn’t Kendall’s idea. Kendall ended up in the same position he’d been in, and had nothing to lose, but he and Roman were the ones who backed shiv this time around. So now we’re at a point where all three kids have shown disloyalty to their father, but kendall and shiv in particular have spearheaded the initiatives- roman has not, yet, and will be interesting to see how that plays out for him next season.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s ridiculous to think that the siblings would think that Logan would negotiate this deal without having figured out a way around their vote. Having Kendall bounce back from his breakdown in 30 seconds was stupid. This season had a few good moments, most of them during Kendall’s birthday party, but ultimately it was very bad. The writing was just poor.

Fundamentally, I just don’t get why these siblings are so obsessed with the idea of taking over this company when they are so obviously not qualified or capable. I know they want to prove themselves to their dad and stuff but I don’t get why him handing them a public company would do that. You would think they would be off trying to do their own thing.

This episode did help me understand that the reason they have such large stakes in the company in the first place is their parent’s divorce. That makes sense - she negotiated that part of her half be in their names. Otherwise I doubt he would have handed them so much control.

Any lawyers on know if it's possible to actually renegotiate the terms of the agreement so long after the divorce took place, in a manner which would substantially negatively affect adult children? It just seemed too easy, but I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?

+1. I had that same question last night.

IANAL but my DH is - complex financial litigation, not family law, though. We were talking about this and he thinks all Caroline would need to agree to is to not contest whatever Logan is going to do. The kids who would benefit can’t usually sue to make her contest it.

This. And I think we got all the details we are going to get on that, but it's also possible/likely that the divorce agreement was not some standard agreement that would be filed in family court, but had a lot of pieces and complexity to it. Even so, I find it a little too neat and a bit far-fetched that their mother could alter the kids' status on the corporate board now that the kids are all adults.

It will be interesting to see if Skaarsgard is a series regular in Season 4. I also feel like we have not seen the last of Stewy and Sandy by a long shot.

I think what pp’s DH is thinking is that Logan will amend the corporate by laws to get rid of the supermajority requirement for change of control. Caroline could possibly stop him by suing to enforce the terms of the divorce decree, but if she refuses to enforce the decree (or agrees to amend it), the kids probably wouldn’t have standing to sue themselves. I think they said in previous episodes that the family doesn’t own a majority of the shares, anymore. The other shareholders will go for the GoJo deal in a heartbeat. It’s not personal to them.

Gerri said exactly the right thing at the end. The job of the corporate officers is to look out for the interests of the shareholders. The kids have been acting as though the company is closely held by Logan and it’s not. Logan realizes that none of the kids have what it takes to run the company when he’s gone, and they’d end up out or a takeover target within no time, probably by some takeover artist that will strip the company and spin off the assets. The power struggle between him and Mattson will be very interesting next season, but Logan has realized that he needs to have that happen while he’s still alive and can control the result.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how I originally read the Greg/Tom scene one way when I thought Tom was going with Shiv, and then knowing Tom went the other way made it deeper. Like now Tom is married to Greg. And while Tom has at times been mean to Greg, he did totally offer to take the jail fall for him and so really HAS totally been the only one in the family to look out for him. Kendall pretended to but ultimately sold him out.

I also thought it was interesting how Logan wanted Kendall to leave at the beginning of the discussion. Would Logan have shared more of his real plans with Roman and Shiv if Kendall hadn’t been there, so the takeover would seem less dire? I mean, you KNOW Logan is not really ceding full control of his company, right, and has some ultimate plan to take it back? Would he have shared it if Kendall wasn’t there so Roman and Shiv would have willingly gone along?

Poor Roman. He lost the most here. Feel bad for him the most because he was almost human comforting Kendall and everything. The GoJo guy liked him, though, so I wonder if he is really as out as the other two.

That was a divide and conquer strategy. I don't think there are any more "real" plans other than what was revealed. Logan gets buckets of money and some enduring company presence because his name's on the building. If the kids would have gone with him they might have been thrown a bone/given a token role. Kendall is totally out and by sticking with Kendall they assured that they are also out.

Shiv is a terrible person and I don't feel bad for her, but she is really in a bad place.

They didn’t “stick with Kendall.” Kendall wanted no part of it- he just wanted out. He was going along at shivs urging. This was shiv who cajoled her siblings and was the mastermind this time, and she and Roman got defeated

They all got defeated. I'm the PP that replied to the bolded - I don't subscribe to the idea that Logan was inclined to tell the kids more. There was no more. He had already gone to a good deal of trouble to cut them out. Shiv and Roman had a chance to still be loyal. If he would have gotten the two of them alone he would have sweet-talked them into trusting him but he already put in motion the altering of their voting positions so no, he wasn't going to offer them "more."

And Kendall's only motivation was not that he wanted to get out. He also wanted revenge on his dad. If he wanted out he wouldn't have said anything about the super majority, which Roman and Shiv were not aware of.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is Logan really trying to have a kid with Kerry? Since he’s dismissed the other kids, he needs a replacement.

I thought Shiv holding her abdomen in shock was interesting at the end.

The butter knife bit, “I’m the oldest son,” with Con was great. He’s completely neutered, no threat, just like a butter knife.

Monopoly cheating was illustrative. Tom being the dog playing piece was perfect.

I think perhaps Kerry is trying to have a kid with Logan.

Speaking of kids, I loved the scene where Logan was disgusted by the book he was reading to his grandson and requested one with more action.

Logan is always repelled by weakness even in kids.

Classic male narc, plus the “supply” of women and scorn for daughter.

If I were Shiv, I'd change my last name and never speak to my father again.

You don't get to do that in this family. Do you remember how Logan's people were harassing Kendall's kid's nanny and scaring Kendall's kids when Kendall went against dear old dad? Kendall knows Logan will destroy anything he tries to do now and in the future. That's the nature of Logan. He must win constantly.

Brief interview with Macfadyen talking about Tom's betrayal.
https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/succession-season-4-everything-to-know-so-far/

Anonymous wrote:I love when people have time on their hands.

OMG!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting exploration of some easter eggs that foretold Tom's betrayal here:

https://www.insidehook.com/article/television/succession-season-3-finale-tom?eid=acb427e91fc741d8bbec68261cc794d1&utm_source=InsideHook&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nation

But as a previous poster stated, in what world would any of these dopey kids have thought they had the skills or experience to run the company? It's a tale of families and betrayal, not business.

they would absolutely believe they could run the company. Look at the Trump kids. Every last one of them more sure than the next of their genius.

Trump org is a fairly modest, privately held company. That’s worlds apart from a multi-billion dollar publicly listed company.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how I originally read the Greg/Tom scene one way when I thought Tom was going with Shiv, and then knowing Tom went the other way made it deeper. Like now Tom is married to Greg. And while Tom has at times been mean to Greg, he did totally offer to take the jail fall for him and so really HAS totally been the only one in the family to look out for him. Kendall pretended to but ultimately sold him out.

I also thought it was interesting how Logan wanted Kendall to leave at the beginning of the discussion. Would Logan have shared more of his real plans with Roman and Shiv if Kendall hadn’t been there, so the takeover would seem less dire? I mean, you KNOW Logan is not really ceding full control of his company, right, and has some ultimate plan to take it back? Would he have shared it if Kendall wasn’t there so Roman and Shiv would have willingly gone along?

Poor Roman. He lost the most here. Feel bad for him the most because he was almost human comforting Kendall and everything. The GoJo guy liked him, though, so I wonder if he is really as out as the other two.

That was a divide and conquer strategy. I don't think there are any more "real" plans other than what was revealed. Logan gets buckets of money and some enduring company presence because his name's on the building. If the kids would have gone with him they might have been thrown a bone/given a token role. Kendall is totally out and by sticking with Kendall they assured that they are also out.

Shiv is a terrible person and I don't feel bad for her, but she is really in a bad place.

They didn’t “stick with Kendall.” Kendall wanted no part of it- he just wanted out. He was going along at shivs urging. This was shiv who cajoled her siblings and was the mastermind this time, and she and Roman got defeated

I love when people have time on their hands.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it was Connor or Greg that told Logan, not Tom??

Intriguing, but I think it was Tom.

Connor and Greg weren’t included. Connor is from first wife and Greg only got the barest of details.

NP. Of course it was Tom!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting exploration of some easter eggs that foretold Tom's betrayal here:

https://www.insidehook.com/article/television/succession-season-3-finale-tom?eid=acb427e91fc741d8bbec68261cc794d1&utm_source=InsideHook&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nation

But as a previous poster stated, in what world would any of these dopey kids have thought they had the skills or experience to run the company? It's a tale of families and betrayal, not business.

they would absolutely believe they could run the company. Look at the Trump kids. Every last one of them more sure than the next of their genius.

+1 And they don’t necessarily want to run the company, but they want to be chosen by their dad to run the company.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting exploration of some easter eggs that foretold Tom's betrayal here:

https://www.insidehook.com/article/television/succession-season-3-finale-tom?eid=acb427e91fc741d8bbec68261cc794d1&utm_source=InsideHook&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nation

But as a previous poster stated, in what world would any of these dopey kids have thought they had the skills or experience to run the company? It's a tale of families and betrayal, not business.

they would absolutely believe they could run the company. Look at the Trump kids. Every last one of them more sure than the next of their genius.