Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 17:26     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
What I don't get is how the poster isn't even troubled by the idea that fear may be causing his belief in God. He's not even rejecting it.

I fear, therefore God Is. Great.

I fear life without playboy bunnies and ninety foot yachts. Let's see how it works out.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 17:25     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Well, I did argue that, should god exist, he's morally devoid and not worthy of my worship. Maybe, that's what the OP means by "submit to an absolute authority"?


Right, but you're safe because from everything we know, there are no gods.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 17:22     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
If nonbelievers are right, and human beings are living machines who come into being and go out of being as their parts come together and then fall apart, any value we assign to humans is granted, not inherent. And when value is given, rather than intrinsic, it can be taken away.


And your point is? You wish it were otherwise?

AND

Some of these posters are making it clear that their belief ( in universal justice or god) is driven by their emotional need. They fear what the world is like without it and therefore they must believe.

Needing something doesn't't make it real though.






The "wishful thinking" argument can be used to justify atheism, too:

Believers cannot bear the thought of living without perfect Justice, so they believe in God.


This is literally the stated position of at least one PP.

Unbelievers cannot bear the thought of living with an absolute Authority, so they do not believe in God.


No rationalist has made such a claim, and you haven't shown that it follows from any claim they have made. Is this just more wishful thinking?
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 17:17     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
If nonbelievers are right, and human beings are living machines who come into being and go out of being as their parts come together and then fall apart, any value we assign to humans is granted, not inherent. And when value is given, rather than intrinsic, it can be taken away.


And your point is? You wish it were otherwise?

AND

Some of these posters are making it clear that their belief ( in universal justice or god) is driven by their emotional need. They fear what the world is like without it and therefore they must believe.

Needing something doesn't't make it real though.






The "wishful thinking" argument can be used to justify atheism, too:

Believers cannot bear the thought of living without perfect Justice, so they believe in God.

Unbelievers cannot bear the thought of living with an absolute Authority, so they do not believe in God.


It COULD. Unfortunately for you, no one is doing that.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 17:15     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:These are slogans, not arguments.



You probably want to be more specific. There have been a lot of comments.


The recent slate of arguments, along the lines of:

If there is no ultimate authority then man can have no morals.
If God is not the ultimate truth, then truth itself does not exist.
If we live in a materialist world, then man's existence is meaningless.

They're just sophistry. You can use these to reasurre yourself that God exists because you refuse to live in a universe where it is otherwise, but they aren't actual arguments grounded in logic.



Man can have morals of his own choosing, but those morals have no meaning beyond preference, opinion, feeling.


Untrue. They can be self-preserving.

However your own description of religion is your opinion and feeling. So I wouldn't go casting aspersions.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 16:46     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:These are slogans, not arguments.



You probably want to be more specific. There have been a lot of comments.


The recent slate of arguments, along the lines of:

If there is no ultimate authority then man can have no morals.
If God is not the ultimate truth, then truth itself does not exist.
If we live in a materialist world, then man's existence is meaningless.

They're just sophistry. You can use these to reasurre yourself that God exists because you refuse to live in a universe where it is otherwise, but they aren't actual arguments grounded in logic.



Man can have morals of his own choosing, but those morals have no meaning beyond preference, opinion, feeling.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 16:40     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Well, I did argue that, should god exist, he's morally devoid and not worthy of my worship. Maybe, that's what the OP means by "submit to an absolute authority"?
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 16:31     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
[quote=Anonymous

The "wishful thinking" argument can be used to justify atheism, too:

Believers cannot bear the thought of living without perfect Justice, so they believe in God.

Unbelievers cannot bear the thought of living with an absolute Authority, so they do not believe in God.


Except nobody is arguing "There cannot be a God, because if there were, I would have to submit to an ultimate athority." People are arguing that the nonexistence of God would ruin their worldview and that this is a reason to think that God exists. It may well be a reason to believe in God, but not a reason that he exists.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 16:26     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:These are slogans, not arguments.



You probably want to be more specific. There have been a lot of comments.


The recent slate of arguments, along the lines of:

If there is no ultimate authority then man can have no morals.
If God is not the ultimate truth, then truth itself does not exist.
If we live in a materialist world, then man's existence is meaningless.

They're just sophistry. You can use these to reasurre yourself that God exists because you refuse to live in a universe where it is otherwise, but they aren't actual arguments grounded in logic.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 16:10     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


I personally think it is very sad when theists claim that without their god they would be homicidal suicidal maniacs with no meaning and purpose in life. I actually see MORE meaning and purpose in my life when I realize that this life is all there is. I also think that if there's an afterlife it would lose it's meaning after a while because after the first 1,000 years of doing and experiencing everything it would get old. I would rather live this life with meaning and purpose then waste this life pining for an afterlife that may not even exist.




There are several things going on in this paragraph, but I want to focus on the highlighted statement. I did not make that claim. In fact, I will get back to the fact that most human beings have a profound moral sense in a moment.

But I did point out, and nonbelievers affirmed this to be true, that in a materialist universe, we may assign meaning to things, but they are still actually just things. The meanings we assign are personal and ultimately arbitrary. Some people use reason to guide their actions--until they don't. Some people use power to guide their actions. Those are meanings they choose, but there is no ultimate arbiter.


No you did not say that (although it may have been implied). I brought that up because I see many theists who make that arguement, especially when discussing morality justice and meaning/purpose in life.

When we apply meaning to things, does that make it more or less meaningful then someone else applying meaning for us? Just because we apply meaning how does that make it any less?



If humans have no inherent dignity, value, and worth, because they are solely creatures of organic matter sprung from material processes, then any meaning assigned to human life is capricious. It is not a matter of degree. The assemblage of atoms that is a human is not actually significant, in reality.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 15:41     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


I personally think it is very sad when theists claim that without their god they would be homicidal suicidal maniacs with no meaning and purpose in life. I actually see MORE meaning and purpose in my life when I realize that this life is all there is. I also think that if there's an afterlife it would lose it's meaning after a while because after the first 1,000 years of doing and experiencing everything it would get old. I would rather live this life with meaning and purpose then waste this life pining for an afterlife that may not even exist.




There are several things going on in this paragraph, but I want to focus on the highlighted statement. I did not make that claim. In fact, I will get back to the fact that most human beings have a profound moral sense in a moment.

But I did point out, and nonbelievers affirmed this to be true, that in a materialist universe, we may assign meaning to things, but they are still actually just things. The meanings we assign are personal and ultimately arbitrary. Some people use reason to guide their actions--until they don't. Some people use power to guide their actions. Those are meanings they choose, but there is no ultimate arbiter.


No you did not say that (although it may have been implied). I brought that up because I see many theists who make that arguement, especially when discussing morality justice and meaning/purpose in life.

When we apply meaning to things, does that make it more or less meaningful then someone else applying meaning for us? Just because we apply meaning how does that make it any less?
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 15:39     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
If nonbelievers are right, and human beings are living machines who come into being and go out of being as their parts come together and then fall apart, any value we assign to humans is granted, not inherent. And when value is given, rather than intrinsic, it can be taken away.


And your point is? You wish it were otherwise?

AND

Some of these posters are making it clear that their belief ( in universal justice or god) is driven by their emotional need. They fear what the world is like without it and therefore they must believe.

Needing something doesn't't make it real though.






The "wishful thinking" argument can be used to justify atheism, too:

Believers cannot bear the thought of living without perfect Justice, so they believe in God.

Unbelievers cannot bear the thought of living with an absolute Authority, so they do not believe in God.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 15:08     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:These are slogans, not arguments.



You probably want to be more specific. There have been a lot of comments.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 14:56     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Some of these posters are making it clear that their belief ( in universal justice or god) is driven by their emotional need. They fear what the world is like without it and therefore they must believe.

Needing something doesn't't make it real though.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2011 14:48     Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
These are slogans, not arguments.