Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:12
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.
There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.
No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.
and I didn't say it did.
Every time you post, you excuse the rapist's behavior. You are part of the problem that led this guy to think that this was okay.
not this girl
me either. I have not excused his behavior in any of my posts
It's worse. Your posts aid and abet this kind of behavior. When you focus on what the victim did or didn't do, you excuse the rapist's behavior. When you state that something bad was bound to happen because she was drunk, you equate her rape to a bad hang-over. You create an environment where the woman is blamed for her own rape and where what happened to her is minimized.
You help rapists rape.
and you know what I posted how?
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:12
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It can be very confusing for an 18 or 19 year old boy when he is with a girl and they both been drinking heavily in regards to where the line is...especially if he has no explicit conversations with anyone about the exact parameters of what constitutes consent.
In many cases, you are asking a boy whose judgment is impaired to make judgment calls on the amount of impairment of the girl, something that can be very hard for him to do. A boy can be drunk and not realize the girl is as drunk or drunker than he is.
I would expect a kid who gets into Stanford to realize that he should not finger a woman who is unconscious behind a dumpster.
But he was a DRUNK kid who got into Stanford. Brains and rational thought go out the window when you're that drunk. Women can't trust someone like that to care what they're doing.
True fact: I drank a lot of alcohol in college and did not finger any unconscious women behind a dumpster.
True fact: Not everyone has the same intelligence level, emotional maturity, social experience, impulse control, ability to handle alcohol,etc.
True fact; alcohol doesn't spontaneously turn normal healthy people into rapists
+1
As a young girl, I got drunk plenty of times (with groups of people who were also drunk). No man during these times ever tried to rape me. The time I was sexually violated (I won't call it rape because I don't consider it rape, really) was when I was sleeping in bed with my sober then-boyfriend and he started having sex with me - while I was still sleeping.
Alcohol does not a rapist make.
Based on your experiences, what advice will you give your kids about alcohol, sexual violations, and rape?
Not PP but my discussions with my kids about alcohol will be completely separate from my discussions with them about sexual violations and rape because they are two different animals.
If only life's experiences could be so neatly compartmentalized.
You can roll your eyes into the back of your head if you want. It doesn't change the fact that far too many high school and college-aged students, as well as young adults, are engaging in highly risky behavior. Getting extremely drunk and counting on others to look out for you is incredibly unsafe. The PP related her experiences of being drunk and being with other people who were drunk but fortunately no one took advantage of her. What's wrong with being sober and aware? Too many people commenting here want to be free to do whatever they want and hope that others will be responsible.
There is nothing at all wrong with being sober and aware. What is wrong is coming on a thread where people are condemning a rapist and instead explaining that young women should be sober and aware. That decision on your part to choose to focus on those particular facts in this particular context is what is problematic, because, even if true, you're trivializing the real issue and inappropriately shifting the responsibility to the victim.
Suppose you're walking down the street and you see a toddler playing close to the curb. Suddenly a drunk driver swerves off the road and runs over the toddler killing him. The mother screams in pain. You helpfully wander over and say "Hey, so, this is a great reminder that you should keep toddlers from standing too close to the curb." What you said is 100% true, and you're still an asshole. This is similar.
No, it isn't. Sharing an opinion in a situation like that would be beyond cruel. On this DCUM forum, the victim isn't participating. We're having a discussion about a crime, a terrible situation. Talking about ways women can protect themselves is hardly the same as directly speaking to someone who has just experienced a tragedy.
A) You don't know that the victim is not participating
B) I'm willing to wager that there are at least a dozen victims of similar crimes on this thread, myself included
Also, even if no victims were present, in the toddler example, if you turned to your friend instead of the toddler's mother and whispered "Well, she should have watched HIM better," I'd still think you're kind of an asshole. The point is that there are a number of folks on this thread who should think seriously about why their first impulse in this thread was to point out what the women could have done differently instead of to sympathize with her. I don't believe most of you would have chosen to do the same if the thread were about a home invasion or vehicular homicide. Yet for some reason, that's the first place you go when you hear about sexual assault. And that's weird EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT. It suggests that for some reason you're having a difficult time accepting that an assault on a college campus by a young, athletic white man really is a horrible, horrible crime, and its worth thinking about what is causing you do to that, whether its our culture, the ways your parents taught you about the different expectations for men and women, or whatever else it might be.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:12
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.
She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.
Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?
Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?
Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.
You're saying were focusing on her rather than him . He's going to jail, is a convicted felon on the sex offender registry. He's being punished. Why shouldn't we also talk about her?
Emily Doe was not a college kid, she had a full time job. She was at the party with her college age sister.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:11
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.
There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.
No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.
and I didn't say it did.
Every time you post, you excuse the rapist's behavior. You are part of the problem that led this guy to think that this was okay.
not this girl
me either. I have not excused his behavior in any of my posts
It's worse. Your posts aid and abet this kind of behavior. When you focus on what the victim did or didn't do, you excuse the rapist's behavior. When you state that something bad was bound to happen because she was drunk, you equate her rape to a bad hang-over. You create an environment where the woman is blamed for her own rape and where what happened to her is minimized.
You help rapists rape.
Truly, your words are despicable and false. You have no idea who I am or what I do or what I've experienced.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:11
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.
She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.
Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?
Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?
Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.
You're saying were focusing on her rather than him . He's going to jail, is a convicted felon on the sex offender registry. He's being punished. Why shouldn't we also talk about her?
There you go again, equating her behavior to his. The last time I checked getting drunk isn't illegal. Rape is.
She is the victim. She didn't volunteer for this. She now has PTSD and a life-time of emotional pain. She doesn't deserve to be raked over the coals because you don't approve her behavior. She didn't do anything illegal, unlike Brock.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:11
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
And you know this how? Did she tell you she was planning to pass out behind a dumpster? Do you feel good about yourself for disparaging another human being?
She drank until she passed out. She passed out because she drank. She was going to pass out somewhere. As it turns out, she left a party alone with a 19 year old college kid who had no intention of bringing her back to his dorm room. She may have walked herself behind that dumpster to fool around with him and passed out while they were fooling around, she may have passed out on the sidewalk or in an alleyway or...anywhere. She could have met up with someone a lot scarier and more violent than Brock.
Do you not see that she made choices that were not going to end well for her that night? I am not "disparaging" this woman but she was not doing a good job of looking out for herself and she is responsible for some of the regrettable choices made that night. She did not deserve to get assaulted - nor is her assailant getting away with assaulting her. But she also is responsible for own regrettable actions.
Thank you for saying what too many people here don't want to admit.
I think everyone will admit that getting black out drunk is not "best practice" in terms of safety. But in the context of the discussion of Brock's guilt, it is irrelevant. To say it is relevant to this discussion is harmful to women.
I don't think people are necessarily sympathizing with Brock, though. I think they're doing what they do every time something bad happens to someone else: trying to rationalize why this couldn't ever happen to them. When someone gets raped at 10 am on the metro, we get 100% outraged because we know this is something we can't control, and that's really, truly scary to us. It's selfish, though, to only care about people who behave just as we would behave.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:09
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.
She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.
Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?
Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?
Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.
You're saying were focusing on her rather than him . He's going to jail, is a convicted felon on the sex offender registry. He's being punished. Why shouldn't we also talk about her?
By your logic, she was already raped and got her "punishment" as well. So why are you focused on her?
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:09
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
I'm so glad I've only see a few ignorant messages like yours in response to this verdict and article.
It is not illegal to get black-out drunk. This is what the victim did.
It is illegal to stand on a public sidewalk/park/area/etc. drinking alcohol. The victim did not do this.
It is illegal to drink and then drive. The victim did not do this.
It is illegal to be drunk in public, being a nuisance. The victim did not do this.
It is illegal to sexually assault another person. This is what Brock did.
It is illegal to digitally penetrate another person. This is what Brock did.
It is illegal to rub your erect penis on an unconscious person. This is what Brock did.
It is illegal to rape another person. This is what Brock did.
Maybe by breaking it down for you, you'll be able to understand that what she did was not illegal. What he did, was illegal.
She did own up to the fact that it was not smart to drink that much. But again, not illegal. He's never owned up to the fact that what he did was illegal. Even now, after being convicted, he nor his father/family believe what he did was illegal. He did what he did because he drank is their mentality. The alcohol is the perpetrator and Brock and his victim are the real victims!
Telling a woman that she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't of been so drunk is wrong.
Telling a woman that she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't been running along in the dark is wrong.
Telling a woman that she wouldn't have been raped if her skirt wasn't so short is wrong.
I refuse to teach my daughter that doing any of the above could lead to her being raped. Why? Because I expect you to teach your son that rape/sexual assault is illegal. End of story.
I've taught my kids that when you're drunk out of your mind and unconscious or high on drugs, you're putting yourself in a very vulnerable position because there are bad people in this world who will take advantage of you if they can. Wish that weren't true, but it is.
Yup. For those of us that live here in reality, you protect yourself and don't put yourself in a vulnerable position. Rape is not ok so not excusing it at all, but there is no need to make yourself a target by what you are wearing, who you are with, where you are, etc. People do have *some* control over their lives.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:09
Subject: Re:That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:more about the family:
http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/brock-turner-parents-father-dad-mother-mom-dan-carleen-facebook-page-20-minutes-of-action/
Just a "normal" middle of the road family. Mom's a nurse, dad a civilian contractor for the Air Force.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:09
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
He backed off because the other ones verbally rejected him. Daunted, he just went and found a girl who wasn't in great condition so he could take advantage of her, which he did. Please stop acting like he was some fine gentleman who called on ladies who were otherwise occupied and went about his merry way. He was a rapist who sought a victim and found one.
She was a college grad (or drop out) who had been to plenty of these parties before. I really don't see her as the "wounded antelope". I see him as a drunk, horny guy who jumped at the chance to leave a party with a woman with the purpose of having consensual sex. He didn't drag her out of there, they left together and probably fooled around a bit until she passed out. Instead of stopping he assaulted her.
Rapists generally don't go around parties making their intentions to rape clear to every woman there. But guys looking to hook up with willing women are a bit more obvious. Every woman at that party knew that this guy wanted action. And Emily Doe left with him...she probably was open to some action herself. But that ceased to be the case when she no longer knew what was happening to her.
see there is no way you can know this. we DON"T KNOW how they ended up behind the dumpster.
You seriously don't think that it wouldn't have been mentioned at the trial if someone had seen him dragging/carrying a passed out Emily Doe out of that party? I am going by what people actually did see him doing. I am also going by what I know to be fairly typical at these kinds of parties. The guy was coming onto women, most were rejecting him and apparently Emily Doe went with him. He didn't kidnap her, they left together. And at some point after that she passed out and wound up lying behind a dumpster being assaulted.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:08
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It can be very confusing for an 18 or 19 year old boy when he is with a girl and they both been drinking heavily in regards to where the line is...especially if he has no explicit conversations with anyone about the exact parameters of what constitutes consent.
In many cases, you are asking a boy whose judgment is impaired to make judgment calls on the amount of impairment of the girl, something that can be very hard for him to do. A boy can be drunk and not realize the girl is as drunk or drunker than he is.
I would expect a kid who gets into Stanford to realize that he should not finger a woman who is unconscious behind a dumpster.
But he was a DRUNK kid who got into Stanford. Brains and rational thought go out the window when you're that drunk. Women can't trust someone like that to care what they're doing.
True fact: I drank a lot of alcohol in college and did not finger any unconscious women behind a dumpster.
True fact: Not everyone has the same intelligence level, emotional maturity, social experience, impulse control, ability to handle alcohol,etc.
True fact; alcohol doesn't spontaneously turn normal healthy people into rapists
+1
As a young girl, I got drunk plenty of times (with groups of people who were also drunk). No man during these times ever tried to rape me. The time I was sexually violated (I won't call it rape because I don't consider it rape, really) was when I was sleeping in bed with my sober then-boyfriend and he started having sex with me - while I was still sleeping.
Alcohol does not a rapist make.
Based on your experiences, what advice will you give your kids about alcohol, sexual violations, and rape?
Not PP but my discussions with my kids about alcohol will be completely separate from my discussions with them about sexual violations and rape because they are two different animals.
If only life's experiences could be so neatly compartmentalized.
You can roll your eyes into the back of your head if you want. It doesn't change the fact that far too many high school and college-aged students, as well as young adults, are engaging in highly risky behavior. Getting extremely drunk and counting on others to look out for you is incredibly unsafe. The PP related her experiences of being drunk and being with other people who were drunk but fortunately no one took advantage of her. What's wrong with being sober and aware? Too many people commenting here want to be free to do whatever they want and hope that others will be responsible.
There is nothing at all wrong with being sober and aware. What is wrong is coming on a thread where people are condemning a rapist and instead explaining that young women should be sober and aware. That decision on your part to choose to focus on those particular facts in this particular context is what is problematic, because, even if true, you're trivializing the real issue and inappropriately shifting the responsibility to the victim.
Suppose you're walking down the street and you see a toddler playing close to the curb. Suddenly a drunk driver swerves off the road and runs over the toddler killing him. The mother screams in pain. You helpfully wander over and say "Hey, so, this is a great reminder that you should keep toddlers from standing too close to the curb." What you said is 100% true, and you're still an asshole. This is similar.
No, it isn't. Sharing an opinion in a situation like that would be beyond cruel. On this DCUM forum, the victim isn't participating. We're having a discussion about a crime, a terrible situation. Talking about ways women can protect themselves is hardly the same as directly speaking to someone who has just experienced a tragedy.
A) You don't know that the victim is not participating
B) I'm willing to wager that there are at least a dozen victims of similar crimes on this thread, myself included
What you're saying could be true for any DCUM discussion thread, unless you think this one should only focus on why he's guilty. The example given is not even close to being the same. I'll add that, for all you know, some of us speaking out that women should take as many steps as possible to be safe is because we've experienced similar or the same as well and don't want others to be victims of a crime. You can't speak for all of us.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:08
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.
She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.
Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?
Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?
Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.
You're saying were focusing on her rather than him . He's going to jail, is a convicted felon on the sex offender registry. He's being punished. Why shouldn't we also talk about her?
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:06
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Actually, the father is correct.
Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.
His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.
This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,
What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?
And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."
She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.
The judge did good in this case.
Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.
Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.
The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.
This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.
Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.
She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.
Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?
Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?
Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.
God, thank you, PP. The ignorance is just incredible. He RAPED her. He's a RAPIST. Learn the word.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:06
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Yeah I'm sure she laid down on the ground behind a dumpster willingly to fool around with him!
Cause that's where girls usually head when they want to hook up with a guy at a party. The ground behind a dumpster.
Cause that's where girls usually head when they want to hook up with a guy at a party. The ground behind a dumpster.
Anonymous
06/07/2016 11:06
Subject: That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.
There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.
No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.
and I didn't say it did.
Every time you post, you excuse the rapist's behavior. You are part of the problem that led this guy to think that this was okay.
not this girl
me either. I have not excused his behavior in any of my posts
It's worse. Your posts aid and abet this kind of behavior. When you focus on what the victim did or didn't do, you excuse the rapist's behavior. When you state that something bad was bound to happen because she was drunk, you equate her rape to a bad hang-over. You create an environment where the woman is blamed for her own rape and where what happened to her is minimized.
You help rapists rape.