Anonymous wrote:Kindness, really? Maybe I'm being cynical here, but please explain to me how a 17 year old teen demonstrates their kindness in a college app without it sounding disingenuous? And now that this is "a thing," every application will have kids trying to convince AOs how kind they are. It's ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd suggest going back and listening to Lee Coffin's March 12, 2024 podcast (S5 Episode 7):
https://admissions.dartmouth.edu/follow/admissions-beat-podcast

I think it does a good job of explaining the "shaping of the class" process that makes this all feel so random.
And there's a lot of focus on (1) kindness being the key attribute Dartmouth looks for and (2) the importance of a narrative in selective college admissions.

++++++++++++++++++++

"Was the class heavy or light on a particular geography at that point? A range of backgrounds of the students' skills and interests, potential majors, activities they might bring with them, what they say they would do when they come to campus, what they'd like to have that experience do to sort of influence them."

"And I'd be interested as you observed, one of the things I think would surprise people is how we don't get into the nitty-gritty of the grades and the transcript as much in committee, because the students who have made it to that round have passed that threshold. So we don't spend a lot of time on that essential component. We've already checked that criteria, and it's the more subjective parts of the file that end up being illuminated as we're having our debates."

"But more often than not, we are thinking about the well-roundedness of the class we're creating. The conversations that happen inside the classroom or residence hall. The most slippery piece is potential, what potential is represented in this candidacy, and how do we nurture that and help someone achieve their ambitions?"

"And it was when there was evidence in the file, when there was evidence in the application of kindness, of decency, of humanity, of humility. And it might've been something that was alluded to in an essay. More importantly, it might've been something said by a counselor, or a teacher, or a peer. Your colleagues and you, you really prized kindness, and you seemed willing at times to admit affirmatively for kindness if all other things being compelling. Can you talk a little bit about why?"

Lee basically tells EVERYONE to create a narrative!!!

"My first takeaway is that for applicants, your time is well spent on these applications. One of the few things within your control is how you tell your story. Those essays that you agonize over, I would offer that you are wise to agonize over them and sweat over them, because your audience is going to be doing the same. And the time you put in making yourself come alive in an essay, there's a return on that investment. Whether it's an admissions officer sitting in their home late at night, or early in the morning, or in that committee room where it's being discussed.

Lee Coffin:
And Jack, I would just... Yes, I 100% agree, and the word I would put out there is news you could use, is focus on your narrative. So it's not just your essay, it's the teachers who will recommend you. It's the interview you may or may not have with someone. It's how does your extracurricular profile tell the story about your interests, passions, talents, engagement?

But narrative is the word. The data piece is your transcript, and your testing, and the grades you get. That's important. But the narrative that envelops around the data is the story of you. It's your essay. It's not just your essay on the common app. It's the short essays on a supplement. It's anytime you put information together through the various pieces of that application creates your narrative. And what we're reading is that story. And what you witnessed in committee was the presentation of that story to our colleagues."

His new podcast, out this week, is for current juniors and seniors. It discusses how (1) AO read the application and (2) why the applicant's job of "storytelling" is so important (along with cohesive narrative) so that the AO can "summarize the story for the selection committee" and "champion the student."

Also, AO like to be "surprised.... they get bored with a kid with a list of activities, and everything is the same, predictable. They want the 8th activity (that was their example) to "surprise them, excite them that are less predictable or scripted (they used the example of fly fishing, skateboard or other things that "don't align" but authentic to what they are interested in). Also, the hobbies they mentioned (making custom watches) - they are looking for what you are curious about.

AO, look for "buzzwords" in LOR and write them down as descriptors that teachers use to describe the applicant. Intangibles are important too. They also admit it's "fun to see applications that remind me of myself at 17".

And how at this point in the season, they are basically in a "jury pool" - presenting what they've read to their peers to make the case one-by-one to get someone in (so that's what's still going on right now in case anyone was wondering).

Found this thread because I was searching for some historical info.
This popped out to me in this thread. If your DC is working on the 10 common app activities list, might be worth a listen or a read.

What podcast is this? I went back a few pages and didn’t see the original post that referred to it. Thanks!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd suggest going back and listening to Lee Coffin's March 12, 2024 podcast (S5 Episode 7):
https://admissions.dartmouth.edu/follow/admissions-beat-podcast

I think it does a good job of explaining the "shaping of the class" process that makes this all feel so random.
And there's a lot of focus on (1) kindness being the key attribute Dartmouth looks for and (2) the importance of a narrative in selective college admissions.

++++++++++++++++++++

"Was the class heavy or light on a particular geography at that point? A range of backgrounds of the students' skills and interests, potential majors, activities they might bring with them, what they say they would do when they come to campus, what they'd like to have that experience do to sort of influence them."

"And I'd be interested as you observed, one of the things I think would surprise people is how we don't get into the nitty-gritty of the grades and the transcript as much in committee, because the students who have made it to that round have passed that threshold. So we don't spend a lot of time on that essential component. We've already checked that criteria, and it's the more subjective parts of the file that end up being illuminated as we're having our debates."

"But more often than not, we are thinking about the well-roundedness of the class we're creating. The conversations that happen inside the classroom or residence hall. The most slippery piece is potential, what potential is represented in this candidacy, and how do we nurture that and help someone achieve their ambitions?"

"And it was when there was evidence in the file, when there was evidence in the application of kindness, of decency, of humanity, of humility. And it might've been something that was alluded to in an essay. More importantly, it might've been something said by a counselor, or a teacher, or a peer. Your colleagues and you, you really prized kindness, and you seemed willing at times to admit affirmatively for kindness if all other things being compelling. Can you talk a little bit about why?"

Lee basically tells EVERYONE to create a narrative!!!

"My first takeaway is that for applicants, your time is well spent on these applications. One of the few things within your control is how you tell your story. Those essays that you agonize over, I would offer that you are wise to agonize over them and sweat over them, because your audience is going to be doing the same. And the time you put in making yourself come alive in an essay, there's a return on that investment. Whether it's an admissions officer sitting in their home late at night, or early in the morning, or in that committee room where it's being discussed.

Lee Coffin:
And Jack, I would just... Yes, I 100% agree, and the word I would put out there is news you could use, is focus on your narrative. So it's not just your essay, it's the teachers who will recommend you. It's the interview you may or may not have with someone. It's how does your extracurricular profile tell the story about your interests, passions, talents, engagement?

But narrative is the word. The data piece is your transcript, and your testing, and the grades you get. That's important. But the narrative that envelops around the data is the story of you. It's your essay. It's not just your essay on the common app. It's the short essays on a supplement. It's anytime you put information together through the various pieces of that application creates your narrative. And what we're reading is that story. And what you witnessed in committee was the presentation of that story to our colleagues."

His new podcast, out this week, is for current juniors and seniors. It discusses how (1) AO read the application and (2) why the applicant's job of "storytelling" is so important (along with cohesive narrative) so that the AO can "summarize the story for the selection committee" and "champion the student."

Also, AO like to be "surprised.... they get bored with a kid with a list of activities, and everything is the same, predictable. They want the 8th activity (that was their example) to "surprise them, excite them that are less predictable or scripted (they used the example of fly fishing, skateboard or other things that "don't align" but authentic to what they are interested in). Also, the hobbies they mentioned (making custom watches) - they are looking for what you are curious about.

AO, look for "buzzwords" in LOR and write them down as descriptors that teachers use to describe the applicant. Intangibles are important too. They also admit it's "fun to see applications that remind me of myself at 17".

And how at this point in the season, they are basically in a "jury pool" - presenting what they've read to their peers to make the case one-by-one to get someone in (so that's what's still going on right now in case anyone was wondering).

Found this thread because I was searching for some historical info.
This popped out to me in this thread. If your DC is working on the 10 common app activities list, might be worth a listen or a read.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd suggest going back and listening to Lee Coffin's March 12, 2024 podcast (S5 Episode 7):
https://admissions.dartmouth.edu/follow/admissions-beat-podcast

I think it does a good job of explaining the "shaping of the class" process that makes this all feel so random.
And there's a lot of focus on (1) kindness being the key attribute Dartmouth looks for and (2) the importance of a narrative in selective college admissions.

++++++++++++++++++++

"Was the class heavy or light on a particular geography at that point? A range of backgrounds of the students' skills and interests, potential majors, activities they might bring with them, what they say they would do when they come to campus, what they'd like to have that experience do to sort of influence them."

"And I'd be interested as you observed, one of the things I think would surprise people is how we don't get into the nitty-gritty of the grades and the transcript as much in committee, because the students who have made it to that round have passed that threshold. So we don't spend a lot of time on that essential component. We've already checked that criteria, and it's the more subjective parts of the file that end up being illuminated as we're having our debates."

"But more often than not, we are thinking about the well-roundedness of the class we're creating. The conversations that happen inside the classroom or residence hall. The most slippery piece is potential, what potential is represented in this candidacy, and how do we nurture that and help someone achieve their ambitions?"

"And it was when there was evidence in the file, when there was evidence in the application of kindness, of decency, of humanity, of humility. And it might've been something that was alluded to in an essay. More importantly, it might've been something said by a counselor, or a teacher, or a peer. Your colleagues and you, you really prized kindness, and you seemed willing at times to admit affirmatively for kindness if all other things being compelling. Can you talk a little bit about why?"

Lee basically tells EVERYONE to create a narrative!!!

"My first takeaway is that for applicants, your time is well spent on these applications. One of the few things within your control is how you tell your story. Those essays that you agonize over, I would offer that you are wise to agonize over them and sweat over them, because your audience is going to be doing the same. And the time you put in making yourself come alive in an essay, there's a return on that investment. Whether it's an admissions officer sitting in their home late at night, or early in the morning, or in that committee room where it's being discussed.

Lee Coffin:
And Jack, I would just... Yes, I 100% agree, and the word I would put out there is news you could use, is focus on your narrative. So it's not just your essay, it's the teachers who will recommend you. It's the interview you may or may not have with someone. It's how does your extracurricular profile tell the story about your interests, passions, talents, engagement?

But narrative is the word. The data piece is your transcript, and your testing, and the grades you get. That's important. But the narrative that envelops around the data is the story of you. It's your essay. It's not just your essay on the common app. It's the short essays on a supplement. It's anytime you put information together through the various pieces of that application creates your narrative. And what we're reading is that story. And what you witnessed in committee was the presentation of that story to our colleagues."

His new podcast, out this week, is for current juniors and seniors. It discusses how (1) AO read the application and (2) why the applicant's job of "storytelling" is so important (along with cohesive narrative) so that the AO can "summarize the story for the selection committee" and "champion the student."

Also, AO like to be "surprised.... they get bored with a kid with a list of activities, and everything is the same, predictable. They want the 8th activity (that was their example) to "surprise them, excite them that are less predictable or scripted (they used the example of fly fishing, skateboard or other things that "don't align" but authentic to what they are interested in). Also, the hobbies they mentioned (making custom watches) - they are looking for what you are curious about.

AO, look for "buzzwords" in LOR and write them down as descriptors that teachers use to describe the applicant. Intangibles are important too. They also admit it's "fun to see applications that remind me of myself at 17".

And how at this point in the season, they are basically in a "jury pool" - presenting what they've read to their peers to make the case one-by-one to get someone in (so that's what's still going on right now in case anyone was wondering).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Agree with/all this.
Similar app strategy here. Also ending up at private T20 (reach). Agree with/advice on essays too!

We were members of AN25 (saw the reference to “hammering”)! Were you guys? We found AN to be enormously helpful in si many ways, though think they undershoot in their 1-on-1 counseling a lot. My DC got into 2 “super-reach” schools (per their classification) and into/WL at several other “reach” schools.

Yes, we did AN25. We've done AN with our older kid so we also knew not to follow everything blindly. She can be very conservative IMO and so we used a blended approach. We do not pay for any of the extras.

What is AN25?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Agree with/all this.
Similar app strategy here. Also ending up at private T20 (reach). Agree with/advice on essays too!

We were members of AN25 (saw the reference to “hammering”)! Were you guys? We found AN to be enormously helpful in si many ways, though think they undershoot in their 1-on-1 counseling a lot. My DC got into 2 “super-reach” schools (per their classification) and into/WL at several other “reach” schools.

Yes, we did AN25. We've done AN with our older kid so we also knew not to follow everything blindly. She can be very conservative IMO and so we used a blended approach. We do not pay for any of the extras.

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Agree with/all this.
Similar app strategy here. Also ending up at private T20 (reach). Agree with/advice on essays too!

We were members of AN25 (saw the reference to “hammering”)! Were you guys? We found AN to be enormously helpful in si many ways, though think they undershoot in their 1-on-1 counseling a lot. My DC got into 2 “super-reach” schools (per their classification) and into/WL at several other “reach” schools.

Yes, we did AN25. We've done AN with our older kid so we also knew not to follow everything blindly. She can be very conservative IMO and so we used a blended approach. We do not pay for any of the extras.

Did you use an outside counselor at all?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Agree with/all this.
Similar app strategy here. Also ending up at private T20 (reach). Agree with/advice on essays too!

We were members of AN25 (saw the reference to “hammering”)! Were you guys? We found AN to be enormously helpful in si many ways, though think they undershoot in their 1-on-1 counseling a lot. My DC got into 2 “super-reach” schools (per their classification) and into/WL at several other “reach” schools.

Yes, we did AN25. We've done AN with our older kid so we also knew not to follow everything blindly. She can be very conservative IMO and so we used a blended approach. We do not pay for any of the extras.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.

Agree with/all this.
Similar app strategy here. Also ending up at private T20 (reach). Agree with/advice on essays too!

We were members of AN25 (saw the reference to “hammering”)! Were you guys? We found AN to be enormously helpful in si many ways, though think they undershoot in their 1-on-1 counseling a lot. My DC got into 2 “super-reach” schools (per their classification) and into/WL at several other “reach” schools.

Anonymous wrote:Lessons learned (public VA HS student, top 10%, attending T20)

1) apply to max 2 safeties you would actually attend. My DC applied to too many safeties, some just because friends applied, that he had absolutely 0 interest in ever going. We indulged but in hindsight was a waste of money, albeit an ego boost.

2) Would have narrowed down some of the reach schools as well, DC applied to 13 which was too many and again, there were some just applied for funsies to see what would happen but were not actually a good fit if they even got in.

In the end, DC applied to 23 schools but could have made a more precise list of about 14 schools they truly would want to attend.

3) Get started on the different types of essays as early as possible- work over the summer. DC generally needed the main common app essay (had 3 versions, as they came up with better ideas), a community essay (a community you identify with and why), a why major and why school essay (that could be tailored to each school as needed, some schools do this as 2 essays others do it combined), most meaningful extracurricular and why....seemed to be pretty common and used multiple times, tailored for the school and question. The most important part of your essays is to think, after reading it, what does it teach the reader about you? What do they know about you from the essay? It should be positive traits and aspects of who you are, and should not keep repeating (hammering) the same themes over and over. You want each essay to teach the admissions reviewers something new and different about you so they get as full a picture of who you are from your application package as possible.