Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my close friends had a wedding last year in another city and did not allow my 13 year old to attend. I was deeply offended and it has essentially ended the friendship. This is a child the bride has known since birth. We shared many other important events together. My DD cried when she found out she was excluded. Flying cross-country without my DD, losing a weekend of time with her, etc. was annoying. I am in my mid-40s and my DH and I have no desire to have a drinking-heavy night on the town type experience.

So, OP, you do what you want, but realize there will probably be consequences.

Then she was not that close of a friend in reality if you cannot understand that she chose to have a wedding of 18+.
I don't need to have "heavy drinking" to enjoy an adults only wedding and I can enjoy a wedding without my teen in tow

PP you quoted here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule for this. I have attended other weddings that were for adults only, left my DD at home, and didn't mind or get upset at all. But this was one of my (supposed) best friends! We had been sharing events like weddings, birthdays, funerals, holidays for 25 years. And when I got to her "no kids" wedding attended by 300+ people and saw that she did actually invite a handful of children - just not mine - I realized I must have totally misunderstood how close we were.

A bride not including kids they don't know very well, yeah, that seems fine. But excluding someone you've been close with for years, you should expect blowback.

Did you enjoy yourself more without having to worry what your kid was doing?

The PP's child was 13 years old, so, doubtful.

No, I didn't. Having to find childcare for the entire weekend was a challenge and I was bummed to fly to a "destination" without her because she really would have enjoyed it and it sucked to use up one of my few free weekends not getting to be with her. She would have had a lot of fun at the wedding.

You couldn't have taken her to the destination and found a sitter to watch her for the hours of the wedding? That way you would have still gotten to enjoy the destination and the couple would have still had a childfree wedding.

Theres so many options, people just refuse to actually look into them

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my close friends had a wedding last year in another city and did not allow my 13 year old to attend. I was deeply offended and it has essentially ended the friendship. This is a child the bride has known since birth. We shared many other important events together. My DD cried when she found out she was excluded. Flying cross-country without my DD, losing a weekend of time with her, etc. was annoying. I am in my mid-40s and my DH and I have no desire to have a drinking-heavy night on the town type experience.

So, OP, you do what you want, but realize there will probably be consequences.

Then she was not that close of a friend in reality if you cannot understand that she chose to have a wedding of 18+.
I don't need to have "heavy drinking" to enjoy an adults only wedding and I can enjoy a wedding without my teen in tow

PP you quoted here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule for this. I have attended other weddings that were for adults only, left my DD at home, and didn't mind or get upset at all. But this was one of my (supposed) best friends! We had been sharing events like weddings, birthdays, funerals, holidays for 25 years. And when I got to her "no kids" wedding attended by 300+ people and saw that she did actually invite a handful of children - just not mine - I realized I must have totally misunderstood how close we were.

A bride not including kids they don't know very well, yeah, that seems fine. But excluding someone you've been close with for years, you should expect blowback.

Did you enjoy yourself more without having to worry what your kid was doing?

The PP's child was 13 years old, so, doubtful.

No, I didn't. Having to find childcare for the entire weekend was a challenge and I was bummed to fly to a "destination" without her because she really would have enjoyed it and it sucked to use up one of my few free weekends not getting to be with her. She would have had a lot of fun at the wedding.

Then you just say no. And take your kid on vacation. This isn't hard since you don't really care about the wedding on its own.

+1

It sounds like you didn't want to be there but felt some sort of obligation. Next time, send a nice card wishing them well and decline rather than going and being bitter about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my close friends had a wedding last year in another city and did not allow my 13 year old to attend. I was deeply offended and it has essentially ended the friendship. This is a child the bride has known since birth. We shared many other important events together. My DD cried when she found out she was excluded. Flying cross-country without my DD, losing a weekend of time with her, etc. was annoying. I am in my mid-40s and my DH and I have no desire to have a drinking-heavy night on the town type experience.

So, OP, you do what you want, but realize there will probably be consequences.

Then she was not that close of a friend in reality if you cannot understand that she chose to have a wedding of 18+.
I don't need to have "heavy drinking" to enjoy an adults only wedding and I can enjoy a wedding without my teen in tow

PP you quoted here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule for this. I have attended other weddings that were for adults only, left my DD at home, and didn't mind or get upset at all. But this was one of my (supposed) best friends! We had been sharing events like weddings, birthdays, funerals, holidays for 25 years. And when I got to her "no kids" wedding attended by 300+ people and saw that she did actually invite a handful of children - just not mine - I realized I must have totally misunderstood how close we were.

A bride not including kids they don't know very well, yeah, that seems fine. But excluding someone you've been close with for years, you should expect blowback.

Did you enjoy yourself more without having to worry what your kid was doing?

The PP's child was 13 years old, so, doubtful.

No, I didn't. Having to find childcare for the entire weekend was a challenge and I was bummed to fly to a "destination" without her because she really would have enjoyed it and it sucked to use up one of my few free weekends not getting to be with her. She would have had a lot of fun at the wedding.

Are you divorced or something? There are 52 weekends a year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my close friends had a wedding last year in another city and did not allow my 13 year old to attend. I was deeply offended and it has essentially ended the friendship. This is a child the bride has known since birth. We shared many other important events together. My DD cried when she found out she was excluded. Flying cross-country without my DD, losing a weekend of time with her, etc. was annoying. I am in my mid-40s and my DH and I have no desire to have a drinking-heavy night on the town type experience.

So, OP, you do what you want, but realize there will probably be consequences.

Then she was not that close of a friend in reality if you cannot understand that she chose to have a wedding of 18+.
I don't need to have "heavy drinking" to enjoy an adults only wedding and I can enjoy a wedding without my teen in tow

PP you quoted here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule for this. I have attended other weddings that were for adults only, left my DD at home, and didn't mind or get upset at all. But this was one of my (supposed) best friends! We had been sharing events like weddings, birthdays, funerals, holidays for 25 years. And when I got to her "no kids" wedding attended by 300+ people and saw that she did actually invite a handful of children - just not mine - I realized I must have totally misunderstood how close we were.

A bride not including kids they don't know very well, yeah, that seems fine. But excluding someone you've been close with for years, you should expect blowback.

Did you enjoy yourself more without having to worry what your kid was doing?

The PP's child was 13 years old, so, doubtful.

No, I didn't. Having to find childcare for the entire weekend was a challenge and I was bummed to fly to a "destination" without her because she really would have enjoyed it and it sucked to use up one of my few free weekends not getting to be with her. She would have had a lot of fun at the wedding.

Then you just say no. And take your kid on vacation. This isn't hard since you don't really care about the wedding on its own.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

So you agree that not all parties include every one every time? Good to know. Value isn't assigned by how many events you get invited to as seen with Grandma In Law.

That’s correct not all parties include everyone but there is significance to events.

It’s not offensive to not include your out of state sibling to your kid’s birthday annual party or your weekly book club, but it is offensive to exclude them from a family Thanksgiving dinner. It is bizarre that this has to be explained.

That's just your opinion. In a kids mind the wedding is pretty low in priority. I never have Thanksgiving with my out of state sibling. We don't even think to invite each other to our separate dinners. You sound like a nut pretending that your made up on the fly rules are adhered to by anyone other than yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my close friends had a wedding last year in another city and did not allow my 13 year old to attend. I was deeply offended and it has essentially ended the friendship. This is a child the bride has known since birth. We shared many other important events together. My DD cried when she found out she was excluded. Flying cross-country without my DD, losing a weekend of time with her, etc. was annoying. I am in my mid-40s and my DH and I have no desire to have a drinking-heavy night on the town type experience.

So, OP, you do what you want, but realize there will probably be consequences.

Then she was not that close of a friend in reality if you cannot understand that she chose to have a wedding of 18+.
I don't need to have "heavy drinking" to enjoy an adults only wedding and I can enjoy a wedding without my teen in tow

PP you quoted here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all rule for this. I have attended other weddings that were for adults only, left my DD at home, and didn't mind or get upset at all. But this was one of my (supposed) best friends! We had been sharing events like weddings, birthdays, funerals, holidays for 25 years. And when I got to her "no kids" wedding attended by 300+ people and saw that she did actually invite a handful of children - just not mine - I realized I must have totally misunderstood how close we were.

A bride not including kids they don't know very well, yeah, that seems fine. But excluding someone you've been close with for years, you should expect blowback.

Did you enjoy yourself more without having to worry what your kid was doing?

The PP's child was 13 years old, so, doubtful.

No, I didn't. Having to find childcare for the entire weekend was a challenge and I was bummed to fly to a "destination" without her because she really would have enjoyed it and it sucked to use up one of my few free weekends not getting to be with her. She would have had a lot of fun at the wedding.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

So you agree that not all parties include every one every time? Good to know. Value isn't assigned by how many events you get invited to as seen with Grandma In Law.

That’s correct not all parties include everyone but there is significance to events.

It’s not offensive to not include your out of state sibling to your kid’s birthday annual party or your weekly book club, but it is offensive to exclude them from a family Thanksgiving dinner. It is bizarre that this has to be explained.

DP - Why? I don't understand how it's "offensive"? If you arent offended at not being invited to birthday parties, why would you be offended for this particular party?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

So you agree that not all parties include every one every time? Good to know. Value isn't assigned by how many events you get invited to as seen with Grandma In Law.

That’s correct not all parties include everyone but there is significance to events.

It’s not offensive to not include your out of state sibling to your kid’s birthday annual party or your weekly book club, but it is offensive to exclude them from a family Thanksgiving dinner. It is bizarre that this has to be explained.

What is offensive is in the eye of the beholder. The people hosting the event are in charge of how they want to celebrate their milestone. Maybe they want just nuclear family, maybe just parents, maybe everyone with whom they share a drop of blood, maybe everyone they've ever met, maybe it is meant to be a quiet adult affair, or maybe they want a wild rumpus. The point is that it is their milestone, their celebration, and their budget. Gracious people -- invited or not invited -- respect their wishes and make their own decisions about whether or not to attend. Not gracious people choose to take offense because they think their own wishes come before the people whose celebration it is, and look for ways to retaliate. The fact that OP has a family that includes such ungracious people doesn't mean she needs to sacrifice her own milestone to unreasonable demands -- and appeasement of ungracious people usually just sets a precedent for continuing and increasing demands. When it's not your celebration, the right thing to do is to let it be. When it is your celebration, you'll get to invite whoever you wish.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

So you agree that not all parties include every one every time? Good to know. Value isn't assigned by how many events you get invited to as seen with Grandma In Law.

That’s correct not all parties include everyone but there is significance to events.

It’s not offensive to not include your out of state sibling to your kid’s birthday annual party or your weekly book club, but it is offensive to exclude them from a family Thanksgiving dinner. It is bizarre that this has to be explained.

My sister and a cousin had a no kids wedding w/ a babysitter upstairs (these were weddings out of town for most family) - both times babysitters were terrible and most siblings and cousins were upstairs or outside dealing w/ kids and then brides were bummed people they wanted to celebrate with them were not in the reception. I did the same thing and many friends from college spent the wedding running up to their rooms to check on the kids - 27 years on I would prefer to have had more time with people who were important to me than the perfect adult atmosphere but i was adamant about the no kids at the time

Anonymous wrote:“Oh I’m so sorry to hear you’ll miss it, let’s catch up when we’re back from the honeymoon!”

No skin off your nose. Ignore anyone who wants to torpedo your plans.

+1,000

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

So you agree that not all parties include every one every time? Good to know. Value isn't assigned by how many events you get invited to as seen with Grandma In Law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

In one post it's just a party, in another it's a travesty! Such flip flop! Such drama!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a way you might be doing that 12 year old a huge favor. 12 years old in a room filled with adults they mostly don't know is not REALLY going to be a celebration for them, anyway, imho. I mean, I can understand the parents feeling upset and wronged, etc., but in reality the kid might have more fun at home.

Okay. Tell yourself that. If the 12 year old didn't want to come she wouldn't. Not inviting her is an insult, not a favor.

Is anyone supposed to feel bad that a 12 yr old is insulted they didn't get invited to an adult party? I mean, she's not an adult. We aren't equals and I don't need a 12 year who isn't my child dictating my wedding choices. Thems the breaks. I'm pretty sure said child has had birthday parties that didn't always include me either, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I support your right to have a childfree wedding but this sentiment is not helping your argument. 12 year olds are people, people at a tender age at that. I can completely understand how an event for adults 18+ would not include a 12 year old, but for me your statement really validates the perspective of the person offended that you excluded her tween. It’s almost like you don’t care about her family. Oh, wait…..

My relationship is primarily with the parents, not the kids. The kids also aren't invited to adult book club meetings, nights out, mom's weekends away, and many other things that are adults only. Our relationship isn't remotely the same. The kids would be invited to the backyard BBQ or pizza and movie night. But if your very special 12 yr old isn't asked to be in the wedding as a jr bridesmaid or flower girl, then no, they really aren't all that important, and that should have been obvious before the invitation arrived.

Grandma in law is also not invited to any of those events, or to your bachelorette party, and yet it would be offensive not to invite her to a milestone life event like the wedding. The 12 year old is a valuable member of this family, that’s why they all think it’s a travesty.

Anonymous wrote:Who are these people who feel their children should be invited to an evening wedding (or any wedding?). I literally cannot believe this would actually offend anyone. When someone invites us to their wedding, we feel honored to share in one of the most important days of their life, and we find a sitter. Do these people who are complaining even like their friends and family? Doesn't seem like it.

They live in troll land. I don't know anyone like this in real life (nor would I want to). Their responses to this thread are so unbelievable that they can't be actual people. So the rest of us, including OP, can just carry on.