Anonymous wrote:Any smart kids reading this, do what I did:

Divide the work into four sections, do your part well. There will probably be another kid who will do his part moderately well. Then just let the dumb kids turn in terrible work.

The dumb kids will panic about this at the last minute when they realize you aren't doing their work for them. That might motivate them. Or not.

You will get a B. It will bring your overall grade down very slightly. It is what it is, the self respect is more important.

In an iterative game, other kids will know they can't just rely on you to do it.

Absolutely terrible advice.
- what about 2 person groups
- how is this helpful in how to handle it as an adult
- how is turning in a crappy overall project maintaining your self esteem

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy crap, English teachers. Your standards are so jumbly and illogically organized. I'm sorry VDOE gives you such a trash document.

By contrast, look how clear and concise the math ones I am given are: https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/48957/638315045918730000

Yes the standards are very different and “literacy” encompasses four very broad spheres of reading, writing, listening, speaking. But some schmuck arguing with us that collaborative work is not in the standards when it is, in black and white, actually explicitly saying they are applying communication skills that we teach in “small group activities” is somehow just icing on the cake. I’m supposed to assess their ability to communicate, cooperatively build understanding of content, divide roles to share work, and reflect on their contribution to the group while also… never assigning any group work?

DP. I’m an English teacher, but not in VA. That post confused me, so maybe you can help me out.

I popped into your standards (and I agree they are disorganized). I saw exactly what I expected to see: lists of skills. That PP was arguing that there are “content” standards, too? I didn’t see those.

To me, standards are the list of skills teachers teach and assess. Content is the vehicle used to deliver them. So I may teach plot structure while reading “The Most Dangerous Game.” Do you actually have a list of texts you must teach somewhere in those standards?

No. The PP does not understand that something can be a content standard (ie skills that the students must learn and demonstrate mastery of- in this case, the standard 10.C.1 refers to communication skills and about 10 different skills students must demonstrate in order to show mastery of this standard) and an assessment method (ie a small group project is what you assign to assess the students’ ability to demonstrate the skills learned in the communication standard). Even when the actual standards are posted here showing all the skills that are named in this standard, including specifically “work collaboratively on small group assignments,” they argue that a) that is not a standard and b) somehow group work isn’t a valid assessment format to measure those skills.

You can teach plot with any fictional or narrative text. You can teach communication skills with any topic. But you assess the students’ ability to demonstrate collaborative communication skills via the assigned group work that requires them to apply those skills. Content is not the same as curriculum is not the same as skills is not the same as standards is not the same as assessment, but they all work together in the learning process.

The group projects are always terrible: in elementary, middle, high, and college. There inevitably is 1 team member that doesn’t pull their weight and others have to complete and re-do their section. The group meetings are tough to coordinate outside of class and one person must take on the lion’s share to unify the ‘look’ and ‘voice’ of the project. They are inherently unequal in work distribution and stress level. That’s just what happens across group projects. Rinse and repeat. It’s rare that the group is all at the same level of hard-working. Many are disasters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy crap, English teachers. Your standards are so jumbly and illogically organized. I'm sorry VDOE gives you such a trash document.

By contrast, look how clear and concise the math ones I am given are: https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/48957/638315045918730000

Yes the standards are very different and “literacy” encompasses four very broad spheres of reading, writing, listening, speaking. But some schmuck arguing with us that collaborative work is not in the standards when it is, in black and white, actually explicitly saying they are applying communication skills that we teach in “small group activities” is somehow just icing on the cake. I’m supposed to assess their ability to communicate, cooperatively build understanding of content, divide roles to share work, and reflect on their contribution to the group while also… never assigning any group work?

DP. I’m an English teacher, but not in VA. That post confused me, so maybe you can help me out.

I popped into your standards (and I agree they are disorganized). I saw exactly what I expected to see: lists of skills. That PP was arguing that there are “content” standards, too? I didn’t see those.

To me, standards are the list of skills teachers teach and assess. Content is the vehicle used to deliver them. So I may teach plot structure while reading “The Most Dangerous Game.” Do you actually have a list of texts you must teach somewhere in those standards?

Anonymous wrote:Holy crap, English teachers. Your standards are so jumbly and illogically organized. I'm sorry VDOE gives you such a trash document.

By contrast, look how clear and concise the math ones I am given are: https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/48957/638315045918730000

Yes the standards are very different and “literacy” encompasses four very broad spheres of reading, writing, listening, speaking. But some schmuck arguing with us that collaborative work is not in the standards when it is, in black and white, actually explicitly saying they are applying communication skills that we teach in “small group activities” is somehow just icing on the cake. I’m supposed to assess their ability to communicate, cooperatively build understanding of content, divide roles to share work, and reflect on their contribution to the group while also… never assigning any group work?

Holy crap, English teachers. Your standards are so jumbly and illogically organized. I'm sorry VDOE gives you such a trash document.

By contrast, look how clear and concise the math ones I am given are: https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/48957/638315045918730000

Any smart kids reading this, do what I did:

Divide the work into four sections, do your part well. There will probably be another kid who will do his part moderately well. Then just let the dumb kids turn in terrible work.

The dumb kids will panic about this at the last minute when they realize you aren't doing their work for them. That might motivate them. Or not.

You will get a B. It will bring your overall grade down very slightly. It is what it is, the self respect is more important.

In an iterative game, other kids will know they can't just rely on you to do it.

The standards of learning comprise both content standards and skill/process standards. Collaborating is not and will never be a "content standard."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

They are literally in the STANDARDS OF LEARNING. Yes they are content standards because they involve SKILLS we must teach in the curriculum and assess. Who the hell told you group is work is new and standards aren’t standards?

The poster you’re responding to isn’t a teacher. They don’t know what standards are. I suspect all they know is that they were in a classroom once and therefore they THINK they can play the role of teacher.

Anonymous wrote:Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

They are literally in the STANDARDS OF LEARNING. Yes they are content standards because they involve SKILLS we must teach in the curriculum and assess. Who the hell told you group is work is new and standards aren’t standards?

Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

I don't recall this happening. In my experience, the diligent kids tried their best to collaborate with the slackers who didn't listen and did not care. In the end, the diligent kids gave up and quietly did all the work so that when the slackers didn't do their parts (shocker!), there was actually a complete project to turn in.

I have a Type A girl and it can be both. One a recent English group project she was freaking out about the 2 kids who were using assigned class time for the project to goof off and planning on doing their portion (aka steamrolling) on the first day of work. I told her under no circumstances was she to do their work early on in the project, but she could prepare so that if they really didn't follow through she wouldn't be up until all hours the day it was due. At the end of the project 1 of the slackers had completed their work entirely and the other had done at least some so DD only had to fill in part of what she'd prepared.

DD can totally boss and dominate and she does need to work on stepping back. But also sometimes she's the only reason a project gets an A. So...balance.

Anonymous wrote:let me know how group work is a "content standard"

Oh boy. Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Here’s the English 10 standards.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/59026/638693485274230000

10.C.1 is Collaboration of Ideas. The sub standards are what the kids need to be able to do to demonstrate they can meet these standards. That’s the part we TEACH. Those are called SKILLS! How do you ASSESS if the kids can use those skills to demonstrate mastery of that collaboration content strand? An assignment where they must COLLABORATE… aka… a group project. As a bonus, we usually tie in 10.C.2 which is Presentation of Ideas.

let me know how group work is a "content standard"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP is a really good example of why teachers do need training to teach those content standards using group projects. (Also to that teacher - a content standard is not equivalent to the assessment format.)

Are you a teacher? Or are you simply someone who plays one online?

I don’t understand your post. Are you suggesting teachers don’t know the difference between a standard and an assessment? And how does PP illustrate this? I’ve been teaching for almost 25 years and don’t understand your point.

Pp doesn’t know that something can be a standard (collaborative work) and also an assessment method (group project). Just saying whatever as if they’re an expert- typical of this forum.