Why not get the best of both worlds (New England and a consortium) at Amherst?

My DC will attend Pomona, but I think Williams is a fantastic school. I have two pieces of advice:

(1) Ignore anyone who claims there's an obvious objective choice between the two. That's ridiculous. Both are exceptional schools with great math departments.

(2) It's completely reasonable to consider study abroad options in deciding among schools. I went to a huge public university, where I had a great time but the highlight was my year abroad. Both Williams and Pomona have truly excellent study abroad options beyond Oxbridge. One of the reasons DC turned down Dartmouth is that he didn't like its limited study-abroad options, particularly for his specific major.

OP back again. Wow we have learned a ton from this thread, and DS is now leaning much closer to Pomona. We are very excited for our visit. WEPO was a really big factor for DC, but hearing there's more out there really put the picture in place for DS. We also checked math catalogs and did find a fascinating amount of offerings by the Claremont Colleges, which also has shifted the choice. Thanks for everyone chiming in on such a marginal topic, surprised we got the engagement we did but much appreciation!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It amazes me how well Williams has been able to market WEPO. Many other colleges have similar programs: Pomona with Cambridge, Amherst with New College, Oxford, and yet it only seems to come up when discussing Williams.

There's also tons of other study abroad opportunities available at both schools, many of which your child may find more alluring than Oxford. The reputation among DC's friends is that Oxbridge is the only study abroad program that is actually academically rigorous. That took it off his list.

It's perfectly reasonable to choose Williams; just not because of WEPO.

It's always puzzled me a bit too, because no other college (maybe NYU or Bard, don't know much about them) has students come, because they're invested in going somewhere else for Junior year.

Pomona recently ramped up summer study abroad-for free-with a faculty membe,r and it looks very impressive. The faculty member has been an FSO, Diplomat, and Policy Advisor, and taught the course with trips to leaders at the EU, NATO, Morocco, and Human Rights Watch. That's the type of study abroad I'd look after.

This would not remotely appeal to either of my kids. A chance to spend a semester at Oxford or Cambridge would.

Pomona has a semester at Cambridge.
Williams has a semester at Oxford.
I'm not sure why this wouldn't appeal to your kids if it was in their department and they had the opportunity to see international career and research opportunities in the field, rather than studying in stuffy Britain colleges, but that's a child by child interest.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It amazes me how well Williams has been able to market WEPO. Many other colleges have similar programs: Pomona with Cambridge, Amherst with New College, Oxford, and yet it only seems to come up when discussing Williams.

There's also tons of other study abroad opportunities available at both schools, many of which your child may find more alluring than Oxford. The reputation among DC's friends is that Oxbridge is the only study abroad program that is actually academically rigorous. That took it off his list.

It's perfectly reasonable to choose Williams; just not because of WEPO.

It's always puzzled me a bit too, because no other college (maybe NYU or Bard, don't know much about them) has students come, because they're invested in going somewhere else for Junior year.

Pomona recently ramped up summer study abroad-for free-with a faculty membe,r and it looks very impressive. The faculty member has been an FSO, Diplomat, and Policy Advisor, and taught the course with trips to leaders at the EU, NATO, Morocco, and Human Rights Watch. That's the type of study abroad I'd look after.

This would not remotely appeal to either of my kids. A chance to spend a semester at Oxford or Cambridge would.

When you tour, try to go on one of the days the math departments are doing colloquium. The Claremont colleges have one almost every day.
When we were deciding between these schools and Bowdoin, the importance became more on what it felt like to be a math major at each school. All three had amazing facilities for math (you can imagine how jealous I am when my alma mater UT had a massive drab gray building that could fit in an office park). Bowdoin had the most majors I believe but had the least "Community" feel-there just seemed to be classes and students and not much else. Williams had a great environment where students were talking in passing about math, and there was even an alum giving a talk when we came, which was interest. What sold Pomona for us was seeing how excited students were when DC told them he was interested in math, finding out that there's 0 department placement policies (an excellent thing if your child is advanced), a fantastic colloquium where DC was sat next to a freshman who asked a graduate student presenter many questions about their research (in a packed house auditorium too), and, embarrassing to admit but I'll say it, the very nice student lounge. It's small details, but it will help you whittle down.

Pomona
ED Acceptance rate: 12.5%
RD Acceptance rate: 5.8%

Williams
ED Acceptance rate: 27.0%
RD Acceptance rate: 8.5%

From the 2023-2024 Common Data Set

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the student is not a college athlete, then Pomona is the easy answer.

Op here. DC is not a student athlete. Is the divide at Williams that serious?

Williams has 35% athletes. Pomona has 31% — more than people think (and more than I thought before I looked it up). https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/search

Williams’ entry system is good about mixing athletes and non-athletes in early friend groups. Still a divide, but not as much as, say, Amherst.

DS was a recruited athlete at Williams and he did not find that to be the case. He thought Williams was very cliquish, and athletes were just one of the cliques.

If it comes down to the wire, it may be helpful for OP's kid to go through faculty page and see whose research appeals more.

Anonymous wrote:It amazes me how well Williams has been able to market WEPO. Many other colleges have similar programs: Pomona with Cambridge, Amherst with New College, Oxford, and yet it only seems to come up when discussing Williams.

There's also tons of other study abroad opportunities available at both schools, many of which your child may find more alluring than Oxford. The reputation among DC's friends is that Oxbridge is the only study abroad program that is actually academically rigorous. That took it off his list.

It's perfectly reasonable to choose Williams; just not because of WEPO.

It's always puzzled me a bit too, because no other college (maybe NYU or Bard, don't know much about them) has students come, because they're invested in going somewhere else for Junior year.

Pomona recently ramped up summer study abroad-for free-with a faculty membe,r and it looks very impressive. The faculty member has been an FSO, Diplomat, and Policy Advisor, and taught the course with trips to leaders at the EU, NATO, Morocco, and Human Rights Watch. That's the type of study abroad I'd look after.

My information is kind of dated at this point, but when I was at Williams, my friends came primarily from three groups, in no particular order (1) my freshman entrymates, (2) the people who lived near me each year (and then thereafter), and (3) my teammates from my club sports team. There were plenty of varsity athletes who fell into Group (1), and plenty of former varsity athletes who fell into Group (3), so I wouldn't say there was a huge athlete/non-athlete divide. But I suppose that may have changed. Williamstown was an amazing place for me to go to school, but it certainly isn't for everyone. The community is (pretty) small, and without access to a car you are pretty limited in where you can go visit. But that was OK for me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the student is not a college athlete, then Pomona is the easy answer.

Op here. DC is not a student athlete. Is the divide at Williams that serious?

Williams has 35% athletes. Pomona has 31% — more than people think (and more than I thought before I looked it up). https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/search

Williams’ entry system is good about mixing athletes and non-athletes in early friend groups. Still a divide, but not as much as, say, Amherst.

Anyhow, as a SLAC, Williams cannot be beaten for math (and job networks therefrom); it would be a mistake going to Pomona.

The colleges has more students than the website says. According to the college, it's closer to 20%:https://www.pomona.edu/about/fact-sheet

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the student is not a college athlete, then Pomona is the easy answer.

Op here. DC is not a student athlete. Is the divide at Williams that serious?

Williams has 35% athletes. Pomona has 31% — more than people think (and more than I thought before I looked it up). https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/search

Williams’ entry system is good about mixing athletes and non-athletes in early friend groups. Still a divide, but not as much as, say, Amherst.

Anyhow, as a SLAC, Williams cannot be beaten for math (and job networks therefrom); it would be a mistake going to Pomona.

Pomona has sponsor program, and Williams is beaten at Math by Pomona (alone) and Harvey Mudd. You should look further into Pomona's math department, the outcomes are just as good, and academically it has always been highly rated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^Williams and Amherst are notorious for the above divide. It gets more diluted at Pomona and 5C’s because the athletes are spread out among the 5 colleges. Also, Pomona way more diverse of the SLAC’s-most student athletes at Williams and Amherst white UMC type students (like 55% or so at Williams).

What about Pomona attracts diverse students do you think? These are all highly competitive colleges for admissions, so seems weird that Pomona would differ

The difference is probably less that it attracts diverse students and more that the admissions office prioritizes diversity in acceptance. Both schools get enough applications to craft a diverse student body. Pomona just does a better job at walking the walk.

I don’t think this is fair to Williams. Despite valiant efforts, it was hard for Williams to attract URMs because of its location (not only its isolation but the fact that top URMs, first generation or not, had their pick of Northeast Ivies.) Cali does not have the same kind of regional competition, plus Pomona is in a more diverse state.

Amherst has been more successful at recruiting URMs, but Amherst is a metropolis compared to Williams, and benefits from proximity to UMass.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^Williams and Amherst are notorious for the above divide. It gets more diluted at Pomona and 5C’s because the athletes are spread out among the 5 colleges. Also, Pomona way more diverse of the SLAC’s-most student athletes at Williams and Amherst white UMC type students (like 55% or so at Williams).

What about Pomona attracts diverse students do you think? These are all highly competitive colleges for admissions, so seems weird that Pomona would differ

The difference is probably less that it attracts diverse students and more that the admissions office prioritizes diversity in acceptance. Both schools get enough applications to craft a diverse student body. Pomona just does a better job at walking the walk.