Anonymous
05/18/2021 11:57
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
TJ is not about determining the "top kids in the county". It never has been, at least within its own mission. It's a place for STEM-capable and STEM-curious students to receive an outstanding STEM-focused education.
The attitude that it is supposed to be a reservoir for the "top kids in the county" helps explain on some level the obsession that parents have with their students being recognized as such with an offer of admission. It's gross and needs to stop.
Neither of those descriptions is really true. TJ is a governor's school for gifted students that focuses on STEM.
here is what the school says:
"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."
I don't see anything about selectivity
Here's what the VA DOE says about governor's schools:
The Virginia Department of Education, in conjunction with localities, sponsors regional Academic-Year Governor's Schools that serve gifted high school students during the academic year. Currently, 19 Academic-Year Governor's Schools provide students with acceleration and exploration in areas ranging from the arts, to government and international studies, and to mathematics, science, and technology.
Governor's Schools give gifted students academic and visual and performing arts opportunities beyond those normally available in the students' home schools. Students are able to focus on a specific area of intellectual or artistic strength and interest and to study in a way that best suits the gifted learner's needs. Each program stresses non-traditional teaching and learning techniques. For example, small-group instruction, hands-on-experiences, research, field studies, or realistic or artistic productions are major elements in the instructional design at all schools. Students become scientists, writers, artists, and performers as they work with professional mentors and instructors. Every effort is made to tailor learning to needs of the community of learners that compose the program.
The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.
Three types of Governor's Schools provide appropriate learning endeavors for gifted students throughout the commonwealth: Academic-Year Governor's Schools (AYGS), Summer Residential Governor's Schools (SRsGS) and the Summer Regional Governor's Schools (SRgGS).
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/academic_year/index.shtml
Anonymous
05/18/2021 11:54
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
here is what the school says:
"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."
I don't see anything about selectivity
Now read the VDOE page on Governor's Schools.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/
"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."
Anonymous
05/18/2021 11:46
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
TJ is not about determining the "top kids in the county". It never has been, at least within its own mission. It's a place for STEM-capable and STEM-curious students to receive an outstanding STEM-focused education.
The attitude that it is supposed to be a reservoir for the "top kids in the county" helps explain on some level the obsession that parents have with their students being recognized as such with an offer of admission. It's gross and needs to stop.
Neither of those descriptions is really true. TJ is a governor's school for gifted students that focuses on STEM.
here is what the school says:
"The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students with a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity."
I don't see anything about selectivity
Anonymous
05/18/2021 11:28
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
TJ is not about determining the "top kids in the county". It never has been, at least within its own mission. It's a place for STEM-capable and STEM-curious students to receive an outstanding STEM-focused education.
The attitude that it is supposed to be a reservoir for the "top kids in the county" helps explain on some level the obsession that parents have with their students being recognized as such with an offer of admission. It's gross and needs to stop.
Neither of those descriptions is really true. TJ is a governor's school for gifted students that focuses on STEM.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 10:22
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
they can use class rank to ensure that all schools in the district have representation and know that everyone who wants to be there can't be there (not much different that today). If the ranking drops, I doubt many people really care
Class rank using what? Grades are already watered down in FCPS, so getting straight As in middle school doesn't mean much of anything. This also would disadvantage kids who are brilliant at math and science but maybe weak enough at English to only get an A- or B+ in a class. Also, if kids in Honors Geometry aren't given a bump over kids in Honors Algebra in 8th, then the system isn't picking the best kids.
On top of that, there are still some affluent kids in the poorest of FCPS middle schools. They'll just use their resources to ensure that their kids get straight As. So, TJ will still be filled with affluent Asian and White kids, and this will solve nothing other than decreasing the quality of the kids at the school.
you sound delightful
Right? It's amazing the kind of garbage people will spew now that we're saying the quiet parts out loud.
Yes, test scores will probably decrease somewhat - because we're no longer overselecting for testing ability. But to suggest that somehow that equates to the quality of the kids declining - that just tells me that your identity is wrapped up in your kids' ability as test takers. And that's really sad, and helps explain why TJ has had the problems that it's had in recent years.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 10:12
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
they can use class rank to ensure that all schools in the district have representation and know that everyone who wants to be there can't be there (not much different that today). If the ranking drops, I doubt many people really care
Class rank using what? Grades are already watered down in FCPS, so getting straight As in middle school doesn't mean much of anything. This also would disadvantage kids who are brilliant at math and science but maybe weak enough at English to only get an A- or B+ in a class. Also, if kids in Honors Geometry aren't given a bump over kids in Honors Algebra in 8th, then the system isn't picking the best kids.
On top of that, there are still some affluent kids in the poorest of FCPS middle schools. They'll just use their resources to ensure that their kids get straight As. So, TJ will still be filled with affluent Asian and White kids, and this will solve nothing other than decreasing the quality of the kids at the school.
you sound delightful
Anonymous
05/18/2021 10:08
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
TJ is not about determining the "top kids in the county". It never has been, at least within its own mission. It's a place for STEM-capable and STEM-curious students to receive an outstanding STEM-focused education.
The attitude that it is supposed to be a reservoir for the "top kids in the county" helps explain on some level the obsession that parents have with their students being recognized as such with an offer of admission. It's gross and needs to stop.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 10:06
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
they can use class rank to ensure that all schools in the district have representation and know that everyone who wants to be there can't be there (not much different that today). If the ranking drops, I doubt many people really care
Class rank using what? Grades are already watered down in FCPS, so getting straight As in middle school doesn't mean much of anything. This also would disadvantage kids who are brilliant at math and science but maybe weak enough at English to only get an A- or B+ in a class. Also, if kids in Honors Geometry aren't given a bump over kids in Honors Algebra in 8th, then the system isn't picking the best kids.
On top of that, there are still some affluent kids in the poorest of FCPS middle schools. They'll just use their resources to ensure that their kids get straight As. So, TJ will still be filled with affluent Asian and White kids, and this will solve nothing other than decreasing the quality of the kids at the school.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 10:06
Subject: Re:New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The comment about the FARMS-heavy schools ignores the fact that for many of those students, the resource that they and their family do not have at their disposal is time. Time to join afterschool clubs, time on weekends to get to and participate in competitions, etc etc etc.
The kids who don't have time to join afterschool clubs, participate in competitions, etc. are also unlikely to be able to devote the time required to be successful at a school like TJ. It's unfortunate, but there isn't an easy solution.
Then TJ needs to change and support the learning of these students. It's a public school, funded by tax payers. You should not need to invest thousands of dollars in tutoring etc and have a parent that knows how to work the system to be successful. The school should provide what the kids needs to thrive.
That's what a truly #1 school would do. Not just rest on the work that the parents put in.
Should we also end competitive sports programs and art programs that don’t serve kids who can’t excel in these areas? This is ridiculous. We will end up with uniform mediocrity. There would be no incentive for kids to try in their strengths. There are highly talented kids who also have a right to an appropriate education. We cannot parent everyone’s children. We can offer ability appropriate education for those willing and able.
Whenever you start seeing this argument model - equating access to high-end STEM education with access to competitive sports programs or orchestras or whatever - you know you're dealing with someone with no more arguments left to make.
There are no end of exceptional extracurricular programs in STEM available to all of these students that you're referring to if they are not at TJ. TJ is a school, not a football team or an orchestra. You can still get internships and other opportunities at whatever school you go to - but TJ is an exceptional taxpayer-funded opportunity that right now is inaccessible to a huge portion of Fairfax County. And the groups that dominate it right now are the same groups that dominate access to those elite extracurricular programs and internships over the summer.
The phrase "opportunity hoarding" exists for a reason. Because it's exactly what it is.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 09:57
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
they can use class rank to ensure that all schools in the district have representation and know that everyone who wants to be there can't be there (not much different that today). If the ranking drops, I doubt many people really care
Anonymous
05/18/2021 09:53
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
If they can't use test scores and they can't use achievements to determine the top kids in the county, exactly what should they use?
Anonymous
05/18/2021 09:48
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:We are talking about 13 and 14 year olds and some of you expect them to have “elite” achievements - whatever that means. Having someone to drive you home after staying late for a club that performs well because affluent families shove money and time into it is not an elite achievement. And seriously, we are talking about admittance to a public high school; you don’t even need an “elite” achievement to get into an elite college.
Good job with completely devaluing kids' achievements. Is that really how you see kids who make it to Mathcounts State? Or who qualify for AIME in middle school? Or who make it to nationals in Science Olympiad? You think they're merely products of affluent families shoving time and money into an activity and not in any way showing the child's merit, aptitude, or effort? Go ahead. Try shoving time and money into something for your child. I bet your child won't even come close to the kids winning the awards.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 08:14
Subject: Re:New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The comment about the FARMS-heavy schools ignores the fact that for many of those students, the resource that they and their family do not have at their disposal is time. Time to join afterschool clubs, time on weekends to get to and participate in competitions, etc etc etc.
The kids who don't have time to join afterschool clubs, participate in competitions, etc. are also unlikely to be able to devote the time required to be successful at a school like TJ. It's unfortunate, but there isn't an easy solution.
Then TJ needs to change and support the learning of these students. It's a public school, funded by tax payers. You should not need to invest thousands of dollars in tutoring etc and have a parent that knows how to work the system to be successful. The school should provide what the kids needs to thrive.
That's what a truly #1 school would do. Not just rest on the work that the parents put in.
Should we also end competitive sports programs and art programs that don’t serve kids who can’t excel in these areas? This is ridiculous. We will end up with uniform mediocrity. There would be no incentive for kids to try in their strengths. There are highly talented kids who also have a right to an appropriate education. We cannot parent everyone’s children. We can offer ability appropriate education for those willing and able.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 07:57
Subject: Re:New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How many kids can even handle the workload at TJ? An extra class is a lot of additional work. Why aren't we just working to get more kids into AP and IB classes?
Please. The Hayfield senior that won the Amazon prize? She comes from a disadvantaged background and has a sibling with profound special needs. Fcps could fill TJ several times over.
What they should do to expand access is go to an Academy model. Any FCPS HS student should be able to take the post-AP TJ classes.
Did she apply and not get into TJ? This is important. Seems like Hayfield gave her plenty of opportunities and she's going to Stanford so Stanford noticed as well. So it's not like she's missing out on a good education or something.
Anonymous
05/18/2021 06:57
Subject: New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation
We are talking about 13 and 14 year olds and some of you expect them to have “elite” achievements - whatever that means. Having someone to drive you home after staying late for a club that performs well because affluent families shove money and time into it is not an elite achievement. And seriously, we are talking about admittance to a public high school; you don’t even need an “elite” achievement to get into an elite college.
And in response to people who question if these kids can handle TJ - the curriculum and instruction aren’t the greatest and the workload isn’t sustainable. Students have committed suicide and are constantly filled with anxiety and stress. The entire school needs to be completely changed or it needs to be shut down. These kids deserve better. They deserve great teachers with a curriculum that inspires and has a mental-health approach to it. We don’t need kids to stay up past midnight freaking out about their work in order for them to grow into STEM leaders.
And in response to people who question if these kids can handle TJ - the curriculum and instruction aren’t the greatest and the workload isn’t sustainable. Students have committed suicide and are constantly filled with anxiety and stress. The entire school needs to be completely changed or it needs to be shut down. These kids deserve better. They deserve great teachers with a curriculum that inspires and has a mental-health approach to it. We don’t need kids to stay up past midnight freaking out about their work in order for them to grow into STEM leaders.