Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

OK, I'll put you in the "women should report rapes, but we shouldn't believe them when they do" camp.

Is this your idea of "fair and respectful treatment"?

Woman, reporting rape to the police: X raped me.
Police: Prove it.

Also, do you think that this is a good way to get women to report their rapes? The number of women who don't report their rapes is far, far greater than the number of women who make a false accusation of rape.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an intelligent rebuttal of the pathetic "fabrication" angle: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-01/uva-should-help-police-catch-alleged-rapists-now

that's not a rebuttal, it's an smart acknowledgement that even without the help of "Jackie" the police and university should have no problem pinpointing a couple of the likely assailants. the corollary here is that it will almost certainly come to light if this story has any credence.

what's a bit more disturbing is that the journalist who wrote this claims it was "kind of hard to get in touch" with the assailants, whom she claims were identified to her by Jackie. that is pretty flimsy ... in this day and age of social media, linkedin, etc. I can get hold of just about any 22-24 year old college graduate with only a name.

It's actually easier if the person has purchased a home (which most 22-24 yo have not) and has an unusual name, not Joe Smith. So your assertion is not correct, besides every lawyer has a perp delete all social media accounts and change phone numbers when there is a possibility of an investigation. I am sure these wealthy kids have all lawyered up.

Not buying it. When the sexist behavior of current and former students at the GW frat was exposed a year or two ago, they were quickly called out by name on any number of web sites. Hasn't happened here, which makes the specific incident alleged at U. Va. start to seem more like a pretext for the Salem Dude trials of 2014.

I agree with this. I am a man and I was in a fraternity. The concept that all guys in a fraternity are completely bound to their fraternity brothers above all else is preposterous. By now, one of the other guys in that frat would have identified the guilty parties here.

Really? If you were in the room you are also going to be under investigation. If you were not in the room you would call the cops with no evidence based on rumors. Also, if you were raping another girls in another room you would also be investigated. There is no way in a million years these boys will talk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why we're not rioting in the streets about this. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Because this whole story is made up and many of us are impartial enough to see it. Violence against women is abhorrent. So is patently lying to get attention. This story is ludicrously fictitious.

You cannot be this fucking disgusting and/or stupid?

I'm exceptionally intelligent, but perhaps I am disgusting. If true this is clearly a travesty, and even if untrue, I agree that UVA ... and lots of other schools ... have a horrible problem on their hands and some serious education/prosecution/restructuring should occur. Sexual violence is a real problem. But until some proof is offered beyond a completely unsubstantiated and anonymous allegation, I will not believe this story. Too hyberbolic. Too hard to keep everyone that participated (assailants and friends) quiet. Too similar to numerous other fictitious stories.

Are you even aware of how investigative reporting works? You don't just write down every word that someone tells you and publish it as fact. What you see on Fox News is not investigative reporting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

so I’ll put you down in the camp of those assuming the investigation will be botched and her allegations will not be taken seriously.

It is both sanctimonious and useless of this forum to delete names of Phi Psi members. They are up on the web all over the place. Phi Psi tried to scrub the web of its own pages, but the names are all over the place on other things, including the boys' own social media accounts, some of which have been altered or deleted by now but they were captured and saved. They are on Faceboook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, etc. Plus, there is always Google cache so the scrubbing attempt just made them look worse. Many families in this area know some of the boys and can attest to their bad behavior in high school. The Fairfax and NOVA forums have their names and photos. I'm not linking but it's pretty easy to find. If anyone wants to know just how connected Phi Psi is, try Googling "Crying son of Virginia Congressman who just lost his seat in shocking 2014 primary upset." That's a good start.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an intelligent rebuttal of the pathetic "fabrication" angle: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-01/uva-should-help-police-catch-alleged-rapists-now

that's not a rebuttal, it's an smart acknowledgement that even without the help of "Jackie" the police and university should have no problem pinpointing a couple of the likely assailants. the corollary here is that it will almost certainly come to light if this story has any credence.

what's a bit more disturbing is that the journalist who wrote this claims it was "kind of hard to get in touch" with the assailants, whom she claims were identified to her by Jackie. that is pretty flimsy ... in this day and age of social media, linkedin, etc. I can get hold of just about any 22-24 year old college graduate with only a name.

It's actually easier if the person has purchased a home (which most 22-24 yo have not) and has an unusual name, not Joe Smith. So your assertion is not correct, besides every lawyer has a perp delete all social media accounts and change phone numbers when there is a possibility of an investigation. I am sure these wealthy kids have all lawyered up.

Not buying it. When the sexist behavior of current and former students at the GW frat was exposed a year or two ago, they were quickly called out by name on any number of web sites. Hasn't happened here, which makes the specific incident alleged at U. Va. start to seem more like a pretext for the Salem Dude trials of 2014.

I agree with this. I am a man and I was in a fraternity. The concept that all guys in a fraternity are completely bound to their fraternity brothers above all else is preposterous. By now, one of the other guys in that frat would have identified the guilty parties here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

You obviously do not know how rape investigations work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an intelligent rebuttal of the pathetic "fabrication" angle: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-01/uva-should-help-police-catch-alleged-rapists-now

that's not a rebuttal, it's an smart acknowledgement that even without the help of "Jackie" the police and university should have no problem pinpointing a couple of the likely assailants. the corollary here is that it will almost certainly come to light if this story has any credence.

what's a bit more disturbing is that the journalist who wrote this claims it was "kind of hard to get in touch" with the assailants, whom she claims were identified to her by Jackie. that is pretty flimsy ... in this day and age of social media, linkedin, etc. I can get hold of just about any 22-24 year old college graduate with only a name.

It's actually easier if the person has purchased a home (which most 22-24 yo have not) and has an unusual name, not Joe Smith. So your assertion is not correct, besides every lawyer has a perp delete all social media accounts and change phone numbers when there is a possibility of an investigation. I am sure these wealthy kids have all lawyered up.

Not buying it. When the sexist behavior of current and former students at the GW frat was exposed a year or two ago, they were quickly called out by name on any number of web sites. Hasn't happened here, which makes the specific incident alleged at U. Va. start to seem more like a pretext for the Salem Dude trials of 2014.

Only time will tell, some people on this website thought Matthews was innocent. I am sure if the Rolling Stones article is a lie many other new outlets will expose them of their lies. I doubt a court will have enough evidence to convict these UVA students, but I think the rest of UVA frat rats will be closely watched, and eventually they will be tried and convicted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

please don’t. The presumption should not cut either way. Both sides should be treated fairly and respectfully until all the facts come out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

I'll put you down in the "women should report rapes, but we should assume they're lying" camp.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an intelligent rebuttal of the pathetic "fabrication" angle: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-01/uva-should-help-police-catch-alleged-rapists-now

that's not a rebuttal, it's an smart acknowledgement that even without the help of "Jackie" the police and university should have no problem pinpointing a couple of the likely assailants. the corollary here is that it will almost certainly come to light if this story has any credence.

what's a bit more disturbing is that the journalist who wrote this claims it was "kind of hard to get in touch" with the assailants, whom she claims were identified to her by Jackie. that is pretty flimsy ... in this day and age of social media, linkedin, etc. I can get hold of just about any 22-24 year old college graduate with only a name.

It's actually easier if the person has purchased a home (which most 22-24 yo have not) and has an unusual name, not Joe Smith. So your assertion is not correct, besides every lawyer has a perp delete all social media accounts and change phone numbers when there is a possibility of an investigation. I am sure these wealthy kids have all lawyered up.

Not buying it. When the sexist behavior of current and former students at the GW frat was exposed a year or two ago, they were quickly called out by name on any number of web sites. Hasn't happened here, which makes the specific incident alleged at U. Va. start to seem more like a pretext for the Salem Dude trials of 2014.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

well that's really the question isn’t it: is she “reporting a rape,” or making a false accusation?
It’s a very serious charge, both sides have to be treated fairly and equally.

Anonymous wrote:

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

Actually thus far in a court of law there is nothing.

Now, if there were something in a court of law, and if I were a judge or a lawyer involved in that court of law, then I would certainly be bound by the rules of evidence. But there isn't, and I'm not, and I'm not.

Meanwhile, we're back to the same paradoxical belief that women should report rapes, but when women do report rapes, we shouldn't believe them. Do you think that this is a possible explanation for the fact that many women don't report rapes? I think it is.

Anonymous wrote:Try thinking about it this way. What if someone accused you of a horrific crime which you did not commit? However, your name is plastered all over the media linking you to this terrible crime. However, charges are never pressed so you have no opportunity to defend yourself nor clear your name publicly from these charges.

That would completely suck. Your life is ruined. You've done nothing wrong and you have no way to change the outcome.

This did happen to an FCPS teacher in No. Virginia. Charged by a female student with sexual assault. He fought the charges, went to trial and he won. She was lying. But he lost his job, can’t get hired and owes the legal fees, which were substantial.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why we're not rioting in the streets about this. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Because this whole story is made up and many of us are impartial enough to see it. Violence against women is abhorrent. So is patently lying to get attention. This story is ludicrously fictitious.

You cannot be this fucking disgusting and/or stupid?

I dunno. The Duke rape charges turned out to be completely fictitious.

Yes, it's true. Rarely, there are rape accusations that are false. (The Duke lacrosse team case, for example, which happened in 2006.) Should we therefore assume that all rape accusations are false, unless proven otherwise? And what about the many rapes that occur, but the rape victim never publicly accuses anybody?

You're changing the debate ... the question is not about rape generally - I haven't seen anyone dismiss the severity of the sexual assault problem - the question is about the veracity of this particular story and the claims that we should be "rioting in the streets" and altogether ignoring the possibility that this one incident is in fact a misrepresentation or potentially a complete fabrication. Thus far in a court of law there is a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence.

So what is the debate.

1. That Jackie lied but there is an institutionalized form of rape on college campuses.
2. That Jackie lied and there is not an institutionalized form of rape on college campuses.