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Anonymous wrote:I love how all the wild conspiracy theorists ignore the most compelling piece of evidence:
It's clear as day the mom wrote the fake ransom note. You can cling to all the other crap and distract yourself and everyone else with crap. She wrote that note.

She had no motive to do any of this. That’s the problem.

She was very theatrical. I can see her doing it in kind of a psychotic haze after accidentally slamming her in the bathroom. That’s always been my main theory. Her prints on the bowl of pineapple alone. Her fabric on the materials used. All her materials. Her note. Jon Benet was cleaned, sounds like a mom. She strangled her without looking. It’s likely the head injury caused seizures and total coma. She may well have thought she was dead. She was apparently in the same clothes as she wore the night before and looked like she’d been up all night. It is indeed very weird but yes, I think it was her.

I've always leaned towards Patsy as well. She was younger than John by 10-15 years. I think he probably treated her like a child and was busy with his career and ignored her but let her do her own thing. They seemed to have an active, almost exhausting, social life. She obviously spent a lot of time and money on JonBenet's pageants. She did things like put her house on the holiday home tour. That's fine, but she gave a vibe of being competitive and wanting to he envied. I think she wanted to show an image of the perfect family. I think probably the reality of kids who were messy and needy drove her crazy. That, plus her near-fatal illness probably drive her over the bend. She seemed really angry in interviews. I thought that she probably went crazy, did it, wrote the note and fooled John. He believed her because he wanted to and she convinced him. The note always seemed like it was written by her, not him, because of much of the phrasing. I think she was probably always duplicitous and hiding her real self behind an image (early on, pageant winner; later, rich doyenne) so she could fake it and at least he believed her. She always said too much and overdid her reactions like liars do. John always had come across as genuinely sad. (I'm sure many will disagree, but those are my impressions.)

On the other hand, the case was botched and so it's impossible to know.

I think this explanation makes a lot of sense, except for the strangulation and sex abuse. If she had just died from head trauma I could see Patsy going crazy and doing it. It is hard for me to also think that she sexually abused and strangled her child while she was still alive that night.

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Anonymous wrote:I love how all the wild conspiracy theorists ignore the most compelling piece of evidence:
It's clear as day the mom wrote the fake ransom note. You can cling to all the other crap and distract yourself and everyone else with crap. She wrote that note.

She had no motive to do any of this. That’s the problem.

To be fair we don’t actually know that. We don’t know if she had been abusing her in some form. We don’t know anything about her psyche.

? Finding a motive is the point. If the police haven’t been able to come up with one in 25 years they should probably move on to another suspect.

No, finding evidence is the point. There is actually a fair amount of evidence against patsy having a hand in the crime in some way. But I agree a motive does make things easier for a conviction.

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Anonymous wrote:Ambidextrous mom obviously wrote the bogus ransom note, so she was covering it up. And she would have been indicted had they not lawyered up immediately.

All the rest of this babble is nonsense.

She would have been indicted? Sure. You know what you’re talking about.

She actually WAS indicted, if you’ll recall. But prosecutors declined to take the case on.

There wasn’t enough evidence, it was all circumstantial. But the PP seems to live in an alternate reality of how this should have played out immediately. But for the bungled crime scene which is always going to be an issue. It wasn’t b/c they “lawyered up” which is what any thinking person would do.

Which is why the prosecutors didn’t bring it to trial, you’re correct. But they were indicted. And I would bet that if they were poor nobodies with brown skin and a prior rap sheet of low level theft or low level drug charges, they’d have been fried.

They were not indicted.

Yes they were. It has been widely reported. Here is the first link that came up when I searched but there are dozens more.

https://www.courthousenews.com/indictment-of-jonbentramseys-parents-released/

It was recommended. That’s it. Read it.

Yes, the grand jury handed down an indictment and the state declined to prosecute. You’re arguing semantics. The state did keep the grand jury recommendation a secret as best they could for a while, so it wasn’t widely known at first, but it happened.

The were never officially indicted b/c the documents were never signed. Read your own links.

Yes because they declined to do so. The grand jury still hears the evidence and recommended an indictment. The corrupt state decided not to do so. Again- semantics.

And then they were exonerated and they said they had 1999 DNA evidence which was the best they had at the time. Which means they know they wouldn’t later with the improvements and new information. So your “indictment” is meaningless.

Most experts laugh at this “DNA evidence”, though. Everything about this crime is a complete mess which is why the killer got away with it. I personally can’t make myself believe that someone broke into the house, tasered her and dragged her out of bed, got her to eat some pineapple in the kitchen, then hit her over the head, strangled her, assaulted her with some of the moms art supplies that they went to find, then afterwords decided to cover her mouth and bind her hands even though she was dead, then went to the dryer and got out a blanket to wrap her in, then went upstairs and tried a few times to write a ransom note, left it on the back stairs because they hoped the parents would come down the back stairs and not the main stairs, and left absolutely no evidence behind except for some scant touch DNA on her underwear. If they were that messy, and took that long, and did that many things, there should have been oodles of hairs, clothing fibers, other touch DNA all over the body and the rest of the scene. Like why would the killer be so careful, in a plastic wetsuit and gloves basically in order to leave no trace on any of the murder weapons or on (or in) her body, but then was like actually I’ll use my bare hand now to touch her underwear before I leave. Oh and I’ll also get some fibers from the moms clothes to put on the duct tape and the rope around her neck.

If you don’t have DNA evidence you have nothing. There is nothing directly connecting the parents to the crime.

You’re right. There is nothing directly connecting them to the crime, it’s all circumstantial. Which is why we will never know. But also, not that this means crimes were prosecuted perfectly before dna evidence (in fact it was the opposite), you can absolutely convict someone of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt with no dna.

But there is some DNA but unfortunately it doesn’t belong to anyone in the house. In JonBenet’s underpants of all places.

My understanding was that this is incredibly small touch DNA, some (or all?) with only partial alleles to analyze. So hardly a smoking gun one way or another and some experts argue it could have come from incidental contact somewhere else- been transferred to it, etc.

On both the underpants and long johns. This has been stated over and over. It doesn’t support the coverup theory so people choose to ignore.

I definitely don’t ignore it- it’s literally the only thing that gives me pause in a case that otherwise looks so obviously done by a family member. It’s the tiny amount of partial touch DNA vs a mountain of circumstantial evidence and it’s why neither the intruder theory nor the “Ramseys did it” theory make complete sense. You can’t explain away the DNA (or at least no one has very convincingly yet) and you can’t explain away aaaallll of the other stuff pointing towards the family.

The stuff that points to the family is like: a 9 year old can totally pull this off and bedwetting is so unusual for sure there was SA. This just reads like someone who doesn’t have kids thinks this is all really normal and obvious. It’s not. And no normal mother, which Patsy was up until that point, suddenly goes bonkers into this staging theory. You have to do a lot less mental gymnastics to think a local pedo did this. JB was a little celebrity in her town and and recently been on display at a Christmas parade. Take an unsecured house and some unknown DNA and it starts to make sense. It goes off the rails with trying to pin on a little boy.

This is what I keep coming back to. If you are a mother, and in the middle of the night, find that your young child has killed your other young child, your first thought is to stage an elaborate cover up and stage a murder/torture scene with your recently deceased child? WHAT? Any parent would be absolutely freaking out, calling 911-- no mother would let her baby out of her sight at that point. But you think she's going to put a garrotte around her neck, duct tape on her mouth, and stuff her in a closet?

Sorry. I don't believe it. I know there are sick people in this world, but that's absolutely psychopathic. Is there any evidence prior to this that Patsy was a psychopath?

Right? So she sees JonBenet isn’t actually dead, instead of calling 911, decides to finish her off, slowly, with an elaborate garotte so that Burke doesn’t get in trouble for hitting her in the head? Like, what?

The parents had no idea she’d been hit in the head when they/patsy found her. They saw her strangled to death with a ligature around her neck and staged it to look like an abduction.

The autopsy after the fact revealed that she’d fractured her skull. You know who knew she’d been hit over the head before the coroner report was released? Burke. When he was questioned by social services, and asked if he knew what happened to jonbenet, he said he knew she’d been killed and had asked his father where her body had been found. He stated that that a bad guy had quietly carried her down to the basement and hit her over the head with a hammer or stabbed her. This was BEFORE anyone except the coroner knew about the skull fracture, which was not visible.

Then the fibers in the garotte don’t mean anything if Patsy didn’t make it or use it.

Of course it means something. It means that Patsy handled all of the things her fibers were found on, even though she never left the main level after the police arrived the morning that jonbenet “went missing.” It’s actually impossible that it was an intruder if patsy’s fibers were found all over the ligature and staging elements. There is more evidence implicating patsy than Burke. The case against Burke is circumstantial but makes logical sense in the context of everything else.

But Burke did it and didn’t leave a trace? Come on. Or you’re back to Patsy slowly and sadistically committed this heinous crime to cover up a much smaller one. Doesn’t work.

Remember JB's body was cleaned.

What do you mean by this? I’ve not heard that

DP but a lot of different sources note that the body had been wiped down and cleaned after death (so no urine or feces on her which usually happens when the person dies for example)

Yes, wiped with a cloth. New underwear put on.

The “new” underwear had blood, urine, and the male dna.

Minuscule/ microscopic traces and partial touch DNA, yes. If you took samples from the underwear you put on 5 minutes ago it would probably contain traces of urine too. And maybe even partial touch DNA from an unknown person that got transferred from your hands.

Yes, but PP refuses to consider these well-established points.

I find it strange that JB would have random white man DNA on her hands to transfer to her underwear and long johns.

Why? She’d been at a Christmas party all night probably touching and hugging all sorts of people, most of them (all of them?) white. Which could also explain the traces of white male DNA (different from the underwear) under her fingernails.

Those were not unknown people. They know who was there.

That’s true. So do you think it was 2 intruders then?? One for the fingernails one for the underwear? Maybe that’s why there was a ransom note, they were going to kidnap her so one sat around drafting that weird note and the other brought her downstairs but then killed her? 2 intruders seems even harder not to leave more traces IMO but who knows

Why don’t the police just retest what they have with all the dna advances?

Probably because the dna is junk.

That’s very convincing. No wonder John Ramsey is pissed.

John Ramsey is a strange dude. He has had not 1 but 2 daughters die tragically and suddenly. When his kids dog died, he didn't tell them, he just replaced it. When his wife was undergoing chemo for the second time and it was evident that it wasn't working, he stopped her chemo treatments without telling her. In his own Netflix interview he was like, "she was asking me when her next treatment was, and I just avoided the question" or something, because he had medical POA and just decided to stop her treatments apparently against her will. After his daughter was murdered, he still tried to head out on vacation until the police told him not to. He seems like a very.... let's say... avoidant person. I could absolutely see this man finding his daughter murdered by either his wife or his son and being like... let's just try to make this whole thing go away, and stage some aspects of it to make it look like an intruder.

The Dr recommended palliative care. You’re making it sound like he pulled the plug. Her cancer came back, it was a long battle and one she wasn’t going to win which John and the Dr understood and Patsy, not in her right mind, didn’t.

So you think it’s ok that her husband unilaterally made that decision for her, and didn’t even tell her? I don’t.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how all the wild conspiracy theorists ignore the most compelling piece of evidence:
It's clear as day the mom wrote the fake ransom note. You can cling to all the other crap and distract yourself and everyone else with crap. She wrote that note.

She had no motive to do any of this. That’s the problem.

She was very theatrical. I can see her doing it in kind of a psychotic haze after accidentally slamming her in the bathroom. That’s always been my main theory. Her prints on the bowl of pineapple alone. Her fabric on the materials used. All her materials. Her note. Jon Benet was cleaned, sounds like a mom. She strangled her without looking. It’s likely the head injury caused seizures and total coma. She may well have thought she was dead. She was apparently in the same clothes as she wore the night before and looked like she’d been up all night. It is indeed very weird but yes, I think it was her.

I've always leaned towards Patsy as well. She was younger than John by 10-15 years. I think he probably treated her like a child and was busy with his career and ignored her but let her do her own thing. They seemed to have an active, almost exhausting, social life. She obviously spent a lot of time and money on JonBenet's pageants. She did things like put her house on the holiday home tour. That's fine, but she gave a vibe of being competitive and wanting to he envied. I think she wanted to show an image of the perfect family. I think probably the reality of kids who were messy and needy drove her crazy. That, plus her near-fatal illness probably drive her over the bend. She seemed really angry in interviews. I thought that she probably went crazy, did it, wrote the note and fooled John. He believed her because he wanted to and she convinced him. The note always seemed like it was written by her, not him, because of much of the phrasing. I think she was probably always duplicitous and hiding her real self behind an image (early on, pageant winner; later, rich doyenne) so she could fake it and at least he believed her. She always said too much and overdid her reactions like liars do. John always had come across as genuinely sad. (I'm sure many will disagree, but those are my impressions.)

On the other hand, the case was botched and so it's impossible to know.

Anonymous wrote:IF one of the parents was on Ambien, it could have been an accident initially. My mother almost burned the house down on Ambien and was swatting at the flames with a long rod.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how all the wild conspiracy theorists ignore the most compelling piece of evidence:
It's clear as day the mom wrote the fake ransom note. You can cling to all the other crap and distract yourself and everyone else with crap. She wrote that note.

She had no motive to do any of this. That’s the problem.

That's why I think Burke killed his sister. The parents found the girl dead at Burke's hands. They staged the scene to cover up for Burke.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just think the intruder theory, while I realize is not a common scenario, is just much more plausible given this families odd habits.

They were not concerned about security as they clearly didn’t fix a broken window from months earlier, never locked doors and never set their alarm. They loved living life in the spotlight, their house was on a Christmas tour, they like to host parties at their house, and they were having tons of work done and had tons of contractors in and out.

The scrutiny over the pageant is because while I don’t think the pageants mean that they were bad parents, I do think there is no question that it opened the door to more pedophiles and weirdos in this child’s life than typical.

I really don’t think it is all that outlandish given the families opening their home, constantly having people in and out, exposing her to predators because of the pageants, and just not being concerned that anyone would break and means it’s much more likely that it could’ve been an intruder.

The Burke theory really falls apart when you learn that the sex abuse occurred while she was alive, and the strangulation occurred while she was awake and alive. I totally get staging a murder but in that insane way from a parent?

For this to work, people are saying that Burke had to be strong enough and violent enough to hit her really violently to almost kill her, that the father had been sexually abusing her and so had wanted to cover up with more sexual abuse, and that the mom went along with all if this. It’s just much more of a stretch than say if they found her at the bottom of her stairs and they tried to make it seem as if she fell. That I could believe, but this bizarre torture scene flies in the face of it being these parents.

I posted before, while I don’t believe it was that John Marr Kerr character, the detail with which he explained what happened does make it seem like he was in a pedophile chat room, and the killer actually described the scenario. I wonder if the police ever looked into anything like that.

I tend to agree with you on a lot of points but I just don’t see how a pedophile intruder would leave SO LITTLE of a trace- no semen despite the sex abuse for example? No fingerprints- he wore gloves the entire time, for a sex assault? (Not common). And how would the mother’s clothing fibers be all over the strangling tool and the duct tape (which was placed post mortem? Why?)

Also, I actually believe that since the coroner said there was evidence of prior sexual abuse , it was more likely to be a family member such as the brother doing that. And the paintbrush, to me, seems like something a woman or a child would do since they don’t have the body parts necessary to do it another way. Just my opinion obviously.

Not to mention the weird ransom note but that’s weird whether it was an intruder OR a family member, just different flavors of weird.

Anonymous wrote:IF one of the parents was on Ambien, it could have been an accident initially. My mother almost burned the house down on Ambien and was swatting at the flames with a long rod.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how all the wild conspiracy theorists ignore the most compelling piece of evidence:
It's clear as day the mom wrote the fake ransom note. You can cling to all the other crap and distract yourself and everyone else with crap. She wrote that note.

She had no motive to do any of this. That’s the problem.

She was very theatrical. I can see her doing it in kind of a psychotic haze after accidentally slamming her in the bathroom. That’s always been my main theory. Her prints on the bowl of pineapple alone. Her fabric on the materials used. All her materials. Her note. Jon Benet was cleaned, sounds like a mom. She strangled her without looking. It’s likely the head injury caused seizures and total coma. She may well have thought she was dead. She was apparently in the same clothes as she wore the night before and looked like she’d been up all night. It is indeed very weird but yes, I think it was her.

I've always leaned towards Patsy as well. She was younger than John by 10-15 years. I think he probably treated her like a child and was busy with his career and ignored her but let her do her own thing. They seemed to have an active, almost exhausting, social life. She obviously spent a lot of time and money on JonBenet's pageants. She did things like put her house on the holiday home tour. That's fine, but she gave a vibe of being competitive and wanting to he envied. I think she wanted to show an image of the perfect family. I think probably the reality of kids who were messy and needy drove her crazy. That, plus her near-fatal illness probably drive her over the bend. She seemed really angry in interviews. I thought that she probably went crazy, did it, wrote the note and fooled John. He believed her because he wanted to and she convinced him. The note always seemed like it was written by her, not him, because of much of the phrasing. I think she was probably always duplicitous and hiding her real self behind an image (early on, pageant winner; later, rich doyenne) so she could fake it and at least he believed her. She always said too much and overdid her reactions like liars do. John always had come across as genuinely sad. (I'm sure many will disagree, but those are my impressions.)

On the other hand, the case was botched and so it's impossible to know.