Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a few Trump signs in our very diverse neighborhood. I'm sort of offended by the signs. I was actually pondering going out at 3am and disposing of them. But I don't need to end up in jail over this....

"I'm sort of offended by the signs." Good.

Oh, would you please come by at 0300 to vandalize our property? Your first stop will be an emergency department with a rump full of birdshot. Then jail.

But that'd just waste a good birdshot shell. I'd make you eat worms and send you home minus your pants.

If you are anything more than a blowhard, you will post your address so that someone can accept your challenge.

Anonymous wrote:There are a few Trump signs in our very diverse neighborhood. I'm sort of offended by the signs. I was actually pondering going out at 3am and disposing of them. But I don't need to end up in jail over this....

"I'm sort of offended by the signs." Good.

Oh, would you please come by at 0300 to vandalize our property? Your first stop will be an emergency department with a rump full of birdshot. Then jail.

But that'd just waste a good birdshot shell. I'd make you eat worms and send you home minus your pants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

Let's start with the fact that marriage is a constitutional right that cannot be denied if a couple are of mixed races or the same sexes. In my experience, wedding cakes (including a groon's cake) aren't inscribed with messages or symbols, whether political or otherwise so your hypothetical seems to be out of pretty far out of the norm. That said, it comes down to whether "neo-Nazis" are a protected class under state or local anti-discrimination laws.

I'm not sure you quite understand how the equal protections clause works. It applies only to government laws/actors. Private discrimination (like "whites only" signs in the old south) has been banned by federal laws passed under the commerce clause... equal protections is unnecessary to achieve that aim and doesn't apply to private businesses. The only constitutional provisions at issue are the ones that might restrain the use of the commerce clause or the passage of any state laws requiring bakers and other business owners to provide services. The first amendment's grants of free speech and free exercise of religion certainly constrain how businesses may be regulated (in an extreme scenario imagine that all business owners were required by law to hang crucifixes in their stores, or were prohibited from doing so). I don't think anyone has a problem requiring bakers to serve all customers regardless of their sexual orientation (gays should be able to buy the same cakes available to straight couples). The question is can they also be required to write pro-gay slogans on the cakes (in the video posted above the customer asked the muslim baker to write "yay for gay marriage!" on the cake). So you must see that at some point it's unreasonable to require store owners to go along with any imaginable request. Maybe you think "yay for gay marriage!" is reasonable but a swastika is not and maybe others would think "yay for gay marriage!" is unreasonable. The point is that when you are using the law to compel private actors to provide services, you need to tread lightly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

Let's start with the fact that marriage is a constitutional right that cannot be denied if a couple are of mixed races or the same sexes. In my experience, wedding cakes (including a groon's cake) aren't inscribed with messages or symbols, whether political or otherwise so your hypothetical seems to be out of pretty far out of the norm. That said, it comes down to whether "neo-Nazis" are a protected class under state or local anti-discrimination laws.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

What "message" are you referring to?

Can you tell me whether this is a "gay" wedding cake or not?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

That's a bad analogy.

Gays don't hurt anyone. Neo-Nazis do.

But don't you see a problem with say "certain types of speech is good and you have to agree to put those types of speech on your cakes, but not other types of speech which I think is bad"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

That's a bad analogy.

Gays don't hurt anyone. Neo-Nazis do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

I think there's a difference between saying "I'm not going to sell ANY cakes to people I don't like" and "I'm not going to put messages on cakes that I disagree with." What if a neonazi couple was getting married and asked that the baker put a swastika on the cake?

Winners

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son-in-law - graduate degree from an Ivy and well employed - says he is going to vote for Trump. He is an independent who leans right though he voted for Obama in 2008. Their HHI approximates $750K.

If someone like my SIL is drawn to Trump I'd say that there are likely a lot of others who may end up voting for him. OTOH, my daughter will not vote for him but she is decidedly liberal. She is voting for Sanders and does not like Hillary.

Money doesn't always = smart.

I have plenty of millionaires in my family who worked hard to earn their salaries. However, that doesn't mean they're necessarily the brightest. Furthermore, being book smart is not the same as being life smart.

I don't understand why we use elitist "values" to determine who's smart.

Perhaps my definition of smart differs dramatically from yours????

No, but it often does. You seldom find really well off people who are authentically stupid. Honestly, I think it's the "book smart" folks who are shielded from reality who are the most taken aback by Trump.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

If you're a baker who doesn't want to serve the public then don't open a storefront to serve the public.

Anonymous wrote:My son-in-law - graduate degree from an Ivy and well employed - says he is going to vote for Trump. He is an independent who leans right though he voted for Obama in 2008. Their HHI approximates $750K.

If someone like my SIL is drawn to Trump I'd say that there are likely a lot of others who may end up voting for him. OTOH, my daughter will not vote for him but she is decidedly liberal. She is voting for Sanders and does not like Hillary.

Money doesn't always = smart.

I have plenty of millionaires in my family who worked hard to earn their salaries. However, that doesn't mean they're necessarily the brightest. Furthermore, being book smart is not the same as being life smart.

I don't understand why we use elitist "values" to determine who's smart.

Perhaps my definition of smart differs dramatically from yours????

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.

Why are homophobes obsessed with things being forced down their throats? That seems a little Freudian.

Gay themed cakes?! What's that - a rainbow? Pretty offensive. LOL.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one ever said that non-discrimination laws apply only to Christian businesses. That is the point - it is just a bakery, it isn't a church. All bakeries should treat all customers fairly. The reason you know about the Christian businesses that were sued for discriminating is because they immediately went to Fox News and right wing websites and started GoFundMe campaigns to cash in on their martyrdom.

You hav nothing to cash in on if you aren't being fined, threatened, etc.

Were the Muslim bakers subjected to the same treatment?

I said all bakers should treat all customers fairly. How hard is that to understand.

What if the gays came in and wanted a double phallus shaped cake? Can the baker refuse? I hope so, but the PC/so called "Civil Rights commission" police would probably disagree.

What if a heterosexual couple wanted a penis in a vagina cake? Can the baker refuse? Of course. No one is saying bakers have to make obscene-shaped cakes, but if a baker makes penis or vagina cakes for heterosexuals then the baker should make a similar cake if requested by a homosexual couple. But that is not what the issue has been anywhere. The issue is bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake for a gay wedding. They did not ask for a gay cake. They asked for a wedding cake. Do you not understand the difference?

Why is every conservative argument on this forum an exercise in making stupidly faulty straw man analogies rather than arguing the actual questions at hand?

This. The gay couple asked for the same type of wedding cake that the bakery has made for every other couple, no penis cake. And frankly I'd wager that gay couples getting married would find a penis cake quite distasteful.

I love that libs are not content with just granting gay rights but actually want to force it down people's throats by forcing people who are disgusted by it to bake gay-themed cakes. What is this, indentured servitude to the enlightened government bureaucrats? What happened to the freedom to choose what you will and won't do.