Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the PP with the messy DH who tracks mud through the house etc-- that does not mean that all men are messy. That just means that your DH is that way.

My DH (age 53) keeps things clean, and always picks up after himself. When he cooks, he washes the pots and pans along the way. His mom taught him all of these things when he was growing up.

If a man is really messy, it's possible that he might have a learning disability such as ADHD that impacts motivation (as I have a son like that . . even though he was raised in a clean house where everyone picks up after their own messes).

In the college dorms where my kids have lived, I've noticed that the students from foreign countries can be much neater than the average American student, many of whom seem content to live like slobs.

+1

My husband is the one who cleaned the house during COVID. I think I wiped down a bathroom once or twice, but he cleaned the whole house weekly. He also handled the kids' school. My job happened to be busier than his during that time so he did far more than I did with the house and kids for a few years. Now we're back to an even split.

It's fair to point this out, but also: just because your spouse took on more cleaning and childcare during COVID does not mean this was the norm or that there aren't many more families where the opposite situation was the case.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

It’s a real d*ck move not to even attempt to host your own mother via (checks notes) providing a hot meal - and moreover to call your wife “crazy” for wanting to do so. y’all are being either truly dysfunctional or totally dishonest.

So let your husband be a d*ck. Why are you making that your problem?

Look, you are so far out of the realm of normal, basic functioning family life that it’s almost pointless. In normal families you do normal things, like put a hot meal on the table when Grandma comes to visit. Dad privilege is assuming Mom will take care of it. Personality disorder is trashing your wife for *wanting to make YOUR mom a hot meal*, and claiming that it’s totally made up work and she’s an idiot for having such high standards.

I'm not the PP to whom you are responding, but you are the one who seems out of the realm of normal.

Feeding grandma is a basic standard, we can all agree on that. But if my husband wants grandma to eat her favorite dumplings for dinner, then he can make them (or order them, I don't care). If the wife is the one who wants to make grandma her favorite dumplings, then fine. But don't say you're doing it because that's what has to happen. That's what you want to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.

Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.

Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.

Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff

This is ridiculous. Of all the things I can think of that provide joy around holidays, none of them include the quality of the plates I'm eating from. You have created this standard and decided that it is universal. It is not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This again guys? Look, we know there are some men out there who do 50% or more. But they are rare. Actual, objective research time and time again shows women do more domestic labor even if they also work outside the home. The whole “default parent” thing is true for many of us.

What resonated most for me on the list is the freedom men have to just assume the mom will handle things. Even if the dad does some of the things on that list 9/10 the mom has set it up or monitors it in some way. I happen to have an extreme version of default parenting that has led to divorce. At the end of the day, it was his complete freedom vs my complete lack of freedom that really soured me, more than the actual work I had to do. Time and time again, being treated like the maid, chef and nanny as he just … walked out the door to do whatever tf he wanted to do … really got demoralizing

You married a dud. The majority of the dads in our social circle are very involved. The moms also work. But in our group, a dud like your husband would stand out. Our bus drop offs and pick ups are at least 50% dads, and many families alternate days like ours does. Dads take kids to events as much as moms do. In fact, the dads take the kids on an annual camping trip. The moms also go on a trip...without the kids. We have a lot of neighborhood parties/events and more often than not it's the dads setting them up and doing the work. I don't doubt that these 1950s-era households still exist in the US, but they are also a relic of the past for many people.

Dp. These are signs that Dad is involved, not that they do 50/50. There’s a ton of day to day chores you’re not seeing.

By your standards, my DH would appear to do 50/50. In reality, he does not. Far from it. DH is not NT, and so our situation is not one of a dud Dad. But even if he was, showing up to events or volunteering, even pickups does not give you a full picture for any one family

Ok, but these people are also my friends, so I know more than what I see at the bus stop. We have at least two families in our group where the dads are the primary parent. Both spouses in those families work (in fact, pretty much all our friends have two working spouses). I mean, if you're going to argue that the only family I can really know is my own, then fine. My husband is an equal partner and nothing like the dads envisioned in that article.

OK? My husband is not an equal partner. We are UMC, I have a graduate degree, and he attended an Ivy. Among our friends with similar jobs and education, I can only think of one where the man is the primary parent. I can think of several where the woman has a higher paying and more demanding job and she is STILL the primary parent. I know tons of well educated, professionally ambitious women who struggle with balance in their marriages, and whose husbands still kind of claim that their job is more central and important despite zero evidence. On balance, the families who can outsource more seem to have better marital harmony, because they are paying someone (in most cases a woman) to do the work that they might otherwise argue over.

The most egalitarian couple I know is divorced. But they split everything 50/50!

Your experience is not everyone's experience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.

Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.

Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.

I actually don’t think this is true. Or at least not in my experience. Generally, the people who have no experience planning anything are the most judgmental. My husband also expects other people to put in at least the same amount of work that he did. So, if we packed up the kids and flew out somewhere or drove several hours for a major holiday, he would expect a clean house and a big meal that he didn’t have to help prepare. He wouldn’t say thank you, eat his pizza, and move on with his life. He would be mad, and he wouldn’t ever want to expend any effort to see them again.

Anonymous wrote:Women will always do more because women have higher standards; men will always do less not so much because they have lower standards (even though they do), but because they know that when push comes to shove, their wives will pick up the slack. They might complain about it on DCUM, but they'll do it.

The casserole/MIL thing is a good example. The DH doesn't actually want his mom to arrive at dinnertime to a dirty house and no dinner. He knows that's not acceptable hosting. But he also knows that he can not clean and not cook because his wife will do it. I know people on DCUM talk a good game like "whelp, if MIL is mad the sheets are dirty and DH is scrambling to put in a pizza order, she can take it up with the son she raised" but 98% of women are not going to actually do that IRL. It's a game of chicken the DH knows he'll win.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.

Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.

Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.

Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.

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Anonymous wrote:The list was definitely illuminating. There's a lot of things that don't apply to my family (I would say my husband is honestly better at solo parenting and solo bedtimes than I am)

I do remember one time I asked my husband to do the birthday party invites and boy did he whine and moan about having to copy and paste some some emails from the preschool directory.

This is the behavior that gets me. There's all this stuff I do that DH doesn't do -- arrange childcare, deal with school (registration, supply lists, teacher communication, knowing it's "crazy sock day," telling the school why a kid is staying home, etc.), deal with clothes and shoes, summer camp, etc. I'll try to delegate some of it to DH and he will just be a child about it, complaining about every single step, throwing up his hands in frustration, procrastinating until the very last minute, etc.

So I'm never actually free of these tasks because he makes such a drama out of it if he does it. Often he'll make a huge stink and STILL not actually do it, until the deadline is tonight and I wind up having to help him with it or do it myself in order to ensure the kids get enrolled in camp or they have swim goggles for class or whatever.

The experience is stressful and it makes me think twice before trying to delegate the next time-- do I want to deal with that again? He also just refuses to ever actually own a task. Like I can make him do camp signups with a lot of handholding and moaning one year, but this does not turn into him initiating that process himself the next year, now that in theory he understands the process. I still have to bring it up and ask him to handle it, and if he dies he will need the same amount of help and will complain just as much. He just clearly does not view it as his problem. And the frustrating thing is if I truly dropped the rope and he didn't do it, he also wouldn't view our lack of summer childcare as his problem-- he'd look at me and say "what are we going to do" and wait for me to come up with a solution while taking no initiative.

When I read people in this thread saying "men are better at delegating" I just think about how delegating is a lot easier if you have a competent person with a good attitude to delegate to. It's a lot harder when your "team" is just one guy who acts like spending 5 minutes researching something online or dealing with any paperwork at all is some horrible imposition.

So did none of this behavior show itself before you had kids? My husband and I each had a dog when we started dating, so I was aware of how much effort he would put into taking care of an animal. We went on trips together, so I saw how much time he would be willing to spend researching trips with me. We hosted parties, so I could tell how much help he would provide if we did something like that, including if it was for "my" friends. We spent time with family, so I knew how much he would be responsible for in terms of responsibility for things related to gifts/planning/hosting/etc. What exactly did you do when you were dating?

Two things. First, to be perfectly honest, we didn't have to allocate a ton of stuff between us before kids. We lived together for 5 years and for the most part we both just did the stuff we preferred and it worked out. We had a pet together, but it was a cat, so low maintenance. If I look back on it now, I can see the ways things were unequal then, but because it was never more than I personally could handle, I just didn't notice. Did I put more effort in around the house? Sure, but I was a DINK and it wasn't that big of a deal. It was easy back then to think "oh, well, having a clean house is more important to me so it makes sense I do more." My DH did do some stuff so it's not like he expected me to wait on him hand and foot.

This changed when we had a kid. A lot. We had more to do, period, and things didn't allocate themselves easily. More and more stuff became my job whether I wanted that job or not. I'd try to push back but he'd push back just as far. He definitely engaged in some of the avoidance behavior people have mentioned, like suddenly needing to work longer hours, hiding in the bathroom, and claiming he didn't know how to do stuff.

So second, I really did not anticipate how much of parenting he would deem "my job" because I was the mom. I read the baby books, he didn't. I went to the pediatric appointments, he did. When this would result in my saying "we need to do XYZ," he'd be like "well sounds like you know more about this than me, so have at it." When I'd insist he do more of it, he just... wouldn't. I remember trying to delegate baby food to him, since I'd been "in charge" of nursing (ie doing it entirely on my own). He was reluctant from he start, did not research, did not listen to the doctor when I dragged him to a doctor's appointment and asked her for guidance, and then just refused to take the lead on it. It was like it was someone else's child. And it was -- mine. I turns out my DH has a lot of very gendered ideas about childcare that he never expressed before we had kids and took me by surprise. And then on top this, things were still kind of uneven with non-child-related tasks. But now I have no time. Ever.

If my DH had told me before we got married, "look, I want kids but I don't intend to do most of the childcare, especially during the infant/toddler years. You're going to have to do that on your own with minimal support from me, and if you try to force me to do more, it's just going to cause conflict," I would, uh, not have married him. I mean for sure not have had a kid with him.

So we stopped at one. It's gotten mildly better as that kid has gotten older, but it's still unequal. Once you have a kid with someone, though, that's it. You're in it. We could divorce but I'd still have to co-parent with him. Plus we lose all the financial efficiencies of a shared household -- it would be a dumb financial choice, even if it might resolve some other issues. So here I am.

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

It’s a real d*ck move not to even attempt to host your own mother via (checks notes) providing a hot meal - and moreover to call your wife “crazy” for wanting to do so. y’all are being either truly dysfunctional or totally dishonest.

So let your husband be a d*ck. Why are you making that your problem?

Look, you are so far out of the realm of normal, basic functioning family life that it’s almost pointless. In normal families you do normal things, like put a hot meal on the table when Grandma comes to visit. Dad privilege is assuming Mom will take care of it. Personality disorder is trashing your wife for *wanting to make YOUR mom a hot meal*, and claiming that it’s totally made up work and she’s an idiot for having such high standards.

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

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Anonymous wrote:I think women just have higher standards and tend to perfectionism. Most of us have a feeling of never being good enough and yes, wanting other women not to judge us. Men don't do that with regard to parenting.
When I took a new job I was crying about being overwhelmed and my husband's idea was to "let it go". "It doesn't matter if the house isn't totally clean, it looks just fine to me." "It doesn't matter if we eat frozen pizza 3 times a week, you don't need to cook gourmet meals all the time." I want my kids to eat healthy dinners and use a clean bathroom! I want him to help me reach my standards, not lower them.

Oh dear. Wanting to eat more than frozen pizza and not having a filthy bathroom is not “perfectionism.” It’s an extremely minimal basic level.

+1, when your excuse for why men don't pull their weight is that when men have "high standards" that equate to basic hygiene and nutrition, you've really lost the plot.

When I hear this, I always wish these men would be forced to actually live down to what they claim are their standards. I think it would last for a little bit and then they'd realize they were depressed and unhealthy, and so were their kids, because it actually sucks to live in a filthy house and eat garbage and not take responsibility for our life.

I know what it looks like based on my xDH’s long vacations with our kid. Fast food or diner food every day, clothes dirty, sunburns (no hats or sunblock), smelling very bad and visibly grimy (no showers for a week).

And I’ll bet the kids have way more fun on vacation with Dad than they do on their carefully curated and controlled educational trips with their uptight mom…

Of course Dad can have fun when he neglects basic everything. Then mom can put it all back together with nutritious meals, haircuts, treating rashes/burns/chapped skin, doing the laundry. THAT is “Dad Privilege,” precisely!

It’s not “Dad Privilege”… It’s a VACATION. It’s SUPPOSED to be a break from normal daily life.

Oh it is 100% Dad Privilege when I pack for them, do all the laundry when they return, deal with whatever weird skin thing resulted. Once he showed up at the airport with our kid’s entire upper lip area from the lip to nostrils caked in dry snot and flaking irritated skin. They have a great time, true, but being the Disney Dad is a trope for a reason, not a defense.

Sorry your picker was broken! No one’s fault but yours.

So it’s not his fault?

He is who he is. You picked him. No, that’s not his fault, that’s your fault.

DP but I hate this argument because it assumes that women know what kinds of husbands and fathers men are going to be. We don't. It's all guesswork. I believe some women have better "pickers" and are better at selecting partners who will show up. But I also don't think it's possible for a woman to fix her picker. I also think a lot of me do an okay job of convincing themselves and the women they marry that the really, actually want an egalitarian marriage, and then later (after kids come along) they are happy to lean into their male privilege to escape doing work. I see it in my husband, my brothers, some of my friends and some of my friends' husbands. It is easy to be like "of course I'll do my share!" when you are 28 and dating a woman you like and being a progressive feminist man makes you seem more attractive. It's very different when you are 48 and you are pretty sure that even if you shirk a lot of stuff, your wife won't leave you because you have two kids together and your finances are all bound up together and she's middle aged too.

Men will woo with "we're equals, baby." They don't always stick with it.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice… why’d you have more than one kid with the guy? Twins?

Blame blame blame. Blame anyone but the actual adult not pulling their own weight.

Blame anyone but yourself for not exercising any agency in your own life. How’s that working out for you?

Sorry dude, you don’t get off the hook that easily. Time to man up.

Eh! Wrong answer, Hans! I’m a happily married woman.

Look I’m not sure what your agenda is here. This clearly isn’t the thread for you since you and your husband are both perfect. Maybe ask yourself what your reason is for hanging out here smugly and $hitting on people?

I don't think there is an agenda. She's clearly far from happy.

Says the woman complaining about her husband incessantly on an anonymous mommy message board.

I’m incredibly happy, but sometimes I DO get bored with all the free time I have not nagging my husband to do pointless busywork or complaining about how it’s SO EMOTIONALLY DIFFICULT to fill out summer camp registration forms once a year. I admit that arguing with dramatic complainers like you ladies is not the most productive hobby, however, I’m just human and I get that dopamine spike reading all your BS.

But I will leave y’all to your victim Olympics now. Good luck in your efforts to change other people!

I actually haven't posted on this thread. Both of my children have special needs, with one child needing a lot of support, and so my spouse and I are actually both very busy trying to keep our heads above water. I'm never sure how much of our experience is normal as a result, but do empathize with a lot of the responses on this thread. What you read as the victim Olympics comes across to me as a lot of people struggling.

I think tone is really hard to get across in an online forum, especially one where so many people are objectively combative. But I do, sincerely, hope that you are happy.

DP but what I see is stereotyping all men into one gross bunch of losers and then people (men and women) being upset that it's an unfair categorization because there are a lot of amazing men (and, conversely, a lot of crappy women) out there. I empathize with the people who are struggling with their spouse. But I'm also not going to let them say that all men are lazy and disgusting and useless because I know many men who are not. THEIR spouse sucks. Their friends may also have spouses who suck. They can cite studies that say that men suck. I'm not dismissing their lived experiences, but I also think it's ridiculous that they are allowed to say that all men suck. There are men and women out there raising men who make/will make great husbands, and there are men and women out there working to make things better (for example, my husband pushed for paternity leave at his company before we had kids, I pushed back when older men at my work treated me like I was their wife even though we had the same degree and title). So maybe it is tone. Or maybe it's just that people who are so unhappy can't see beyond themselves, and I sympathize with that. But the list in the article posted by OP boiled all men down to useless, idiotic creatures, and I don't think that's fair. I feel sorry for the people who are married to people (men or women) who check many of those boxes, but that doesn't mean all men are morons and all women are harpies.

The push back in this thread almost entirely takes the form of "Well I/my husband are not like this, so it's offensive to even SUGGEST that this is a problem."

So since you personally know men who pull their weight at home, it is "offensive" to point out that there are lots of men who don't, and that often their behavior is socially condoned?

Why is it so hard to just say "I'm glad my marriage is not like this and I know plenty of men who aren't like this, but I believe that there are still men who have this kind of 'dad privilege' and support working to get rid of it because I know first hand that a more egalitarian marriage tends to work better."

Like why jump right to "Lies! This never happens! Men and women are totally equal and there's no such thing as dad privilege despite literally millennia of women being made subservient to men! We fixed it! Stop complaining!" Why assume this is BS just because it does not describe YOUR specific situation. Maybe you have an unusually evolved spouse, but not everyone does.

Nobody is pushing back against the statement “lots of men” they are pushing back against the statement that “men” without an attached qualifier. “Dad privilege” implies that almost all men do this when clearly that is not the case? I can’t believe that has to be explained to an UMC college educated audience. I suspect it’s intentional and biased rather than an innocent mistake of language.

Dp. It don't feel it does imply that all men do everything on the list. It implies that men can get the benefit of this privilege, not that they all use it.

Another poster commented that women have the privilege to SAHP without negative implications. I disagree with that poster---I think the mommy wars over SAHMs show this not to be true---but that statement, if taken to be true, would still not imply that all women SAHP.

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

You are confused. The PP wants to make sure that there is food to eat on a day when they will have house guests arriving and may not have time to cook. It's not about not wanting to cook for her MIL, it's about not having to be in charge of making sure that the family has food when it needs food, a planning responsibility that many men might not bother with.

Just like dad might drop the kids off at camp every day, but mom might be the one to start thinking about camp in December, knowing many camps fill in January, and start doing research and pricing things out, then start looking at the school calendar and also planning any travel so they know what weeks they need camp for (all while her DH is like "why are you asking about this now? that's months away? can't we plan this later?") and then making sure she signs up when camps go up so they don't get locked out, and filling out all the paperwork for the camps and getting any needed supplies as they approach. But all you might see is the dad dropping the kids off and think "wow, what an involved dad, he's definitely doing 50%. Maybe more -- I don't see their mom dropping these kids off. Boy is she lucky to have a partner who just totally handles camp for her." This is what people are talking about when they talk about the invisible labor of parenting that disproportionately falls on women.

I would LOVE to be the partner who simply gets to weight in on whether my mother would prefer lasagna or ordering pizza when she arrives next week (while my partner figures out the logistics of either and bothers to think about it at all) or the partner who drops off my kids at camp every day wearing appropriate clothes and sunscreen and with the requisite materials (while my partner figures out literally ever aspect of camp logistics months in advance and spends weeks making sure we have everything we need and the bill is paid and all the paperwork is filled out so that I can just hug my kids and look like a hero while doing almost nothing). That gig sounds great.

DP, but my wife has definitely done camp drop off but she's never researched, booked, or submitted a camp form in her life. Usually, I do drop off, but sometimes she does. She's taken kids to dentist appointments I scheduled, but I don't think she's scheduled more than a handful of doctors/dentist appointments. Not knowing goes both ways.

And honestly if you gave me the choice between doing camp forms and signups and doing drop off, I'd pick the one I can do from my desk at work without a second thought. Commuting out of my way to do drop off is more annoying than signups, although neither are especially onerous tasks.

Ok, that's your family. It's #NotAllMen.

If most families worked the way yours did, I bet we'd see a lot less commentary on unequal division of labor in marriages.

Not sure why the people with good, equal marriages are so determined to tell everyone who doesn't have an equal or fair marriage on this thread that they are simply wrong about their own experience. After all if YOU book all your kids dentist appointments and enroll them in camp, then there is simply no way that MY husband has literally never done either of those things, ever.

It's just odd that you would feel so certain that I am wrong about my lived experience. I bet if I told you my husband absolutely does 50% of everything you'd believe that. So why won't you believe when I tell the truth, which is that he's barely eking out 20%?

You're reading those posts wrong.