Anonymous
09/09/2020 16:17
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
Honey, everyone is an educator who saw thousands of students on the interwebz.
I am white. But if I was an Indian parent and you had guts enough to put your name to the drivel you wrote, I would dedicate my life to ruining yours and discrediting every shred of professional credibility you've ever had.
Anonymous
09/09/2020 15:19
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
Not a whole lot of argument here. It would be fine if there were a few kids like this running around at TJ, but for a population that makes up some 40-odd% of the school to be this way.... that's not really a good thing for TJ. Time to find some far more dynamic individuals.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 17:15
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
Man, I thought the Indians would be out in force to condemn this one.... awful quiet up in here....
I am an Indian and there isn't much to condemn here and I actually think its pretty good observation. I do not necessarily tag every Indian with this stereotype and I don't know how much I fit into this, but must admit that a good percent do fall into this category.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 17:12
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
I think it’s pretty clear that Curie was involved in cheating. Students sign a statement the day fo the test that they will not share the information. Multiple students have come out publicaly and said that they went from the test to Curie learning center to download on what the test was. This benefitted not only the next year test takers, but also those taking the test on another day due to being sick or needing accommodations. It also may have helped the summer round applicants.
It’s a mess. There is no way they went honestly from 51 for ‘22 to 85 or so for ‘23 to 133 (28% of the class!) for ‘24. There are too many kids talking abut what was going on for it to be all smoke and no fire.
I do not see this as a racial issue and wish people would stop talking about it like that. It’s cheating pure and simple and should be stopped. The current system rewards cheaters and FCPS has a duty to fix it.
It’s a mess. There is no way they went honestly from 51 for ‘22 to 85 or so for ‘23 to 133 (28% of the class!) for ‘24. There are too many kids talking abut what was going on for it to be all smoke and no fire.
I do not see this as a racial issue and wish people would stop talking about it like that. It’s cheating pure and simple and should be stopped. The current system rewards cheaters and FCPS has a duty to fix it.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 16:55
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
I am an Indian and I regretfully agree with you on pretty much everything you said!
This is the same person i.e. 15:15 poster. While I agree with the general observation about Indian kids, I do not necessarily agree with the idea that there might be cheating involved in TJ admissions which is the topic of this thread. I know a lot of Indian kids who went to curie and though many of them fit the stereotype and work very hard, I can't imagine anyone even consider cheating. It does not make sense. To me, it just appears like Curie simply mastered how to prep the kids for TJ entrance and the admission process needs to be changed to counter it.
Just wanted to add that I spent over half of my life in this country (came here to pursue my masters), the above sums up how my thinking has evolved over 20+ years here. Due to the caste system, reservations/quotas in education/jobs that leaves less than 30% for general public, corruption, over population, limited opportunities, too much importance on marks or individual rank in the school and extreme pressure to succeed puts a lot of stress on higher education in India. To make it worse, the education system in India does not really promote practical thinking and so you see less creativity and more hard work in kids. In some ways, creativity and original thinking is actively discouraged. Also, there is generally very little focus on activities outside of the academics.
I resented my Indian education and yet I struggle with very same issues with my kids now. My older kid does pretty well in school, gets good grades etc. but, he usually needs direction. If I challenge him with a problem that requires more out of the box thinking or something outside his comfort zone, he freezes. I try spend a lot of time to counter this behavior, but have very limited success so far i.e. I encourage him to think differently, work on unique non-standard approach to problem solving etc. My younger kid however does not like to follow directions and probably does not fit the stereotype. She more adventurous, always insists on trying things on her own and does not seek help unless she is certain that she can't figure out her own. While each kid is different, I can't rule of the possibility that we were trying to adjust to and figure out US education system with my older kid, which is allowing us guide the younger kid in a little differently.
Thank you for insights!
Anonymous
09/08/2020 16:18
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
Man, I thought the Indians would be out in force to condemn this one.... awful quiet up in here....
Anonymous
09/08/2020 15:15
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
I am an Indian and I regretfully agree with you on pretty much everything you said!
Anonymous
09/08/2020 15:10
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
This is definitely racist.... but pretty much 100% spot on. It explains so much of what I've seen in my career as well. Wow.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 11:52
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Indian students dominate the Spelling Bee because it is a competition of rote memorization with a sprinkling of formulaic thinking. Indian students are unique in their ability to firmly command material that they've seen before, but the moment a variable is introduced that they're unfamiliar with, they tend to freeze.
I have dealt with thousands of students of all nationalities over the many years that I've been involved in public education, and the one thing that is consistent about Indian students and families is their demand to know exactly what to prepare for in any evaluation. Exactly how many questions, exactly what types of questions, exactly what sorts of drills, and exactly what the metrics of evaluation will be. And that's just not how life works for 99% of it.
I've had dozens of doctors in my life. Consistent among Indian doctors is their extraordinary textbook knowledge and their extreme inability to adjust to the specific circumstances that present themselves with each individual patient - drugs that don't work, symptoms that don't match up... basically anything that isn't "by the book". They score the best in speed of visit and the worst in listening to their patients.
And finally, Indian students (and to an even greater extent, their parents) are supremely unique in their difficulty understanding the importance of sacrificing something that would be nominally good for themselves or their family in support of the collective or of society. The more recently a family has emigrated from India, the more acutely they carry the zero-sum mentality that goes with living in a country with a historically well-defined caste system with such an extreme and visible difference between rich and poor. If you want to know why "opportunity hoarding" is a thing, this is pretty much why.
Feel free to call me a racist if you want - these are observations that have been so consistent as to become predictable over time. White people have their issues - mostly surrounding entitlement. Blacks and Hispanics have their issues - mostly around a complete lack of academic self-confidence. East Asians have their issues - mostly around a cultural inability to advocate for themselves. With Indians, it's rigidity and inflexibility - and it's BY FAR the most consistent. And the thing that makes me the happiest as an educator is when I find a student who defies these stereotypes.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 11:26
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This conversation really reframes the idea of "merit" as being a measurable part of the TJ admissions process. This is a course that, according to their website, costs $4200 and spans 70 sessions (at $60/pop) over 16 months.
In other words, they’re working their butts off for 16 months (!) while their peers are pissing their free time away on tik-tok, travel sports they’re mediocre at, video games, fantasy sports, and Netflix.
There are certainly some of their peers who are doing what you mention with all of their free time. Those kids are probably not applying to TJ.
There are also some of the Curie students who are doing some of that stuff with the remainder of their free time.
There are also a ton of students out there who are working incredibly hard with TJ as a goal but who do not have access to Curie and their ill-gotten privileged test information for one reason or another, whether it's finances, lack of awareness, lack of transportation, or who knows what else.
I for one am not terribly impressed with kids who work hard only because they're under the lash of their parents, who are deciding their futures for them. I'm also not terribly impressed with the hundreds of extremely hard-working students who get into TJ every year on the strength of their boosted test scores and artificially inflated STEM resumes, but who flat out aren't bright enough to do the work once they get there without driving themselves into the ground.
The biggest reason for the mental health issues at TJ is the high volume of students who don't have the horsepower to hack the curriculum and are forced into insane study habits and horrendous school-life-sleep balance as a consequence. Anyone who has a deep familiarity with TJ will tell you this - and most of the people who don't get this are parents who are in denial about what they've done to their kids.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 06:07
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: In my opinion, AAP is a bad idea and I don't like the way it segregates the kids at such a young age.
I agree with you. This all stems back to the ridiculous rule that you can't track kids based on ability because it supposedly discriminates against URM, so they had to create this ridiculous AAP system that does basically the same thing, but it's less malleable. Wouldn't it be great if we could have 3 or 4 different levels in all schools and kids could be placed in the level that is appropriate for them at the time, based on achievement on everyday schoolwork? And have a gifted magnet for the truly gifted 2 to 5%
Anonymous
09/08/2020 01:43
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
If you have some time, try to dig up on how many Indian kids compete in spelling bee and math and science competitions, go into science, engineering and medical undergrad and grad programs all around the country (esp. better ranked universities), take jobs or start companies in computers, engineering and other STEM related professions compared to their demographic representation in the country. Do you believe Indian kids have been cheating in the spelling bee as we just can't imagine how they can completely dominate the bee for 15+ years though they represent less than 1% population of US?. Well, Its not that hard to understand. This does not necessarily mean Indians are inherently smarter than everybody else. Its simply because they are more academic focused than others and Indians see education (esp. STEM) as the key to successful life, tend to prioritize education over anything else in life and do not hesitate to spend money and resources. Since many Indian parents themselves have STEM background, their kids are naturally inclined to go in the same direction and with the enrichment and hard work, they probably have a leg up in the game.
It may not be fair, but its no secret that kids (any race, region or country) with well educated and academic focussed parents tend to do better 'on average' as compared to kids from non-academic focussed families and have a higher chance of success as a result. This is where teachers, schools and government need to focus and spend resources on. They need to focus on recognizing the natural talent in kids and promote/raise them when parents aren't providing necessary support. But, if the schools have to reduce their standards to be more inclusive, then its step in the wrong direction.
Anonymous
09/08/2020 00:34
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Why would multiple current TJ students state that they had access to the actual questions ahead of time?
Why do almost 100% of the kids that get into TJ from Curie have Indian names? This is not a normal TJ prep place.
I personally do not see any problems with prepping. However, this particular company appears extremely suspect.
Why does it matter that the kids are Indian? These schools get their students by word of mouth. It's possible curie's founders are indian or they started off at a location with a lot of indians.
Should a reader assume a "Therefore" before the second sentence (bolded)? If so, why?
Anonymous
09/07/2020 22:58
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:This conversation really reframes the idea of "merit" as being a measurable part of the TJ admissions process. This is a course that, according to their website, costs $4200 and spans 70 sessions (at $60/pop) over 16 months.
In other words, they’re working their butts off for 16 months (!) while their peers are pissing their free time away on tik-tok, travel sports they’re mediocre at, video games, fantasy sports, and Netflix.
Anonymous
09/07/2020 22:33
Subject: How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?
Anonymous wrote:I mean, my point was ostensibly that the admissions process needs to change to combat this behavior and make it irrelevant to the selection process. I don't blame the families who use the advantages that they have - I'm saying those advantages need to become irrelevant.
And yes, students who have parents that are specifically invested in getting into TJ have a huge advantage over students whose parents are highly academically motivated but are NOT specifically invested in TJ from an early age. That's a problem that needs to be solved.
It is definitely ideal to have the admission process that is immune to prepping, but I do not think it is easy to come with one. There is a reason why standardized tests are popular - it is easier to conduct at a large scale and also it eliminates the teacher/evaluator bias to a large extent. However the downside is, any standardized test can be prepped. Even if the test comes up with uniquely logical questions each year, there is still an advantage to those who prepare for such questions. Even interviews can be prepped if you know what they are looking for. Any approach we take, I am not sure if it is every going to be completely fair to every one. Genuine question - If you were in charge of admissions, how would you do it with out diluting the magnet school program?
There are two types of kids that get into TJ i.e. 1. Really smart kids who don't really need to put much effort 2. Above average kids, who make up for their lack of genius level intelligence with their work ethic/discipline and willingness to work extra hard. May be TJ needs both types of kids. In my opinion, hard work, persistence and discipline often trumps intelligence in real life and the few that have both become leaders. I am in a STEM field, and in my experience, I prefer to work with a smart hardworking team player compared to an arrogant genius who refuses to listen and work with others.
I am curious to see how TJ is going to reform their admissions. I have many questions - 1. Will they limit asians to 5% based on the county demographics or will they assign quotas based on parent's country of origin ex: Indian, Chinese, Italian, Mexican etc. 2. If they do school based quotas, are they going to admit equal number of kids from AAP center schools and non-center schools? If so, an AAP kid who chooses to go to base school rather than center school, has a higher chance of getting into TJ? Or do they assign quotas based on which base elementary school (not AAP center) their house fall under for a true geographic representation? What if asian kids still tend to dominate the admissions with their geographic zone?
. What if the kid moves from over represented school to under represented school just to improve his/her chances? 3. Is the lottery system truly justified and how do you ensure that it does not eliminate truly deserving kids? 4. Is it practical to conduct interviews for every applicant and/or depend more on the teacher input and still ensure that there is no race/gender bias?
Let me give a small example. This year, my DD got into AAP with both cogat and nnat above the cut-off with some home based work samples and her teacher encouraged us to submit samples if we have any. I am sure the teacher gave good referral as DD is very social and likes to impress teachers. My neighbors kid, who had similar scores as my DD (with slightly better quant score), did not get into AAP. They didn't bother with work samples and apparently teacher (not the same teacher as my daughters) referral isn't great which may be because the kid is very shy and doesn't talk much, but he is very smart. The third example is also another neighbor, whose kid's score were below cut off, but got into pool and then admitted into AAP with parent referral and good work samples. How do you justify there is no bias in AAP admissions and its 'holistic' approach? In my opinion, AAP is a bad idea and I don't like the way it segregates the kids at such a young age.