Anonymous wrote:It pretty simple.

Elite schools have figured out that the White privileged class is not always the best source of genius, talent, creativity and innovation. These things come in many forms and from may places. Holistic admission policies are just better at identifying folks with these factors.

This thread kind of bears out the selfish nature of the argument. Not one White anti-AA has argued about why their kids benefit the campus or what their kids bring to the table that contributes to the educational experience of those around them. All they talk about is opportunities that are being take from them - that they are being cheated. The Pro AA crowd talks in terms of a more diverse campus and that resulting in a positive experience for all students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative action cannot continue indefinitely. Considering that blacks were getting preferential treatment in the 1970s, we are now on the third generation getting into college with standards lowered to allow it. Jews and Asians immigrated here, and even among the poor, uneducated ones, their kids went to college on their own merits. How many more generations is this supposed to last?

I support color-blind, income-based affirmative action. Let's give all bright poor kids a chance, regardless of race.

How about when blacks are not disproportionately stopped by cops and killed? How about when blacks are not disproportionately given jail term for the same minor drug crime that whites get away with community service? How about when blacks are not viewed with negative stereotype no matter their own personal qualities? How about when blacks are allowed to get the same access to good schools instead of the poor school districts they are isolated to thus perpetuating their permanent underclass status? How about when the last vestige of racism is rooted out?

I can go on but the point is whites assume that just because there is no slavery or Jim Crow suddenly life for blacks became heavenly. Blacks suffer through the effects of subtle, systemic racism to this day. All minorities face some form of racism but blacks and Hispanics the most. Asians face racism when climbing through the ranks but that has slowly changed with more asian CEOs.

1) Blacks are not disproportionately stopped and killed by cops. Whenever they look at the data they find that blacks are less likely to be shot than whites in similar circumstances. Blacks are about 25% of the people shot by cops but they commit 40+% of the violent crime. The proportion of blacks shot by police has been going steadily down for the last 30 years.

There's a really good piece talking about this subject here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

2) Schools in predominantly black areas get the same funding that other school systems get. It's the students that make the schools "bad".

Don't know what to do about the stereotypes, but if young black males weren't 3-10 times more likely to commit most types of crime I'm pretty sure these stereotypes wouldn't exist.

1) You are totally wrong. A 2017 Stanford study says otherwise. Just because statistically blacks commit higher crimes doesn't mean an innocent black person gets shot. Do not post a blogger site for reference because it has zero credibility.

http://news.stanford.edu/2016/06/28/stanford-researchers-develop-new-statistical-test-shows-racial-profiling-police-traffic-stops/

2) This is a total lie. School funding is based on property taxes and obviously schools with wealthier neighborhoods get better teachers, better facilities and funding.

Why did you conveniently ignore the whites getting away with drug crimes which is the core issue due to which black men are not able to be with families. Suddenly drugs are becoming an issue because whites are getting affected. But when blacks were the ones getting affected by drugs nobody cared and infact blacks ere sent to jail for addiction. Now that whites are getting affected you are talking about drug treatment facilities. This is systemic racism.

Anonymous wrote:
How about black put some efforts and try not to get to jail at all? How about creating a positive stereotype about your race by actually doing something positive?
As to the schools, it is what your kids make out of it. Asians kids get to the schools and make them the best performing schools in the district. How about black kids start pulling their school rating up instead just redistricting to the different school and bringing it down?
Why are you assuming that white folks' lives are heavenly? It is hard work, for both, parents and children. But for some reason, white and Asians are willing to put a hard work, and blacks are demanding everything is to be given to them. Blacks suffer through the effects of their own judgement and choices they are making, and then call it racism. Yes, all races are facing difficulties in life. But some races just work harder and that is why you see the result of their hard work (more asian CEOs), while the other races just blaming every one else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are good at making assumptions. I don't have to be black to make a case for Affirmative Action. Holocaust is bad but not nearly as bad as slavery which went on for centuries and killed millions of blacks and deprived them the very humanity you take for granted. It is much much worse than Holocaust. No one said everything is someone else's fault. But slavery, jim crow, cop shooting of unarmed blacks, harsh criminal justice reserved for minor black crimes are all on the hands of systemic racism.

oh

Here we go again. Let's see whose history is worse - descendants of slaves or descendants of the Holocaust.

lynchings
gas chambers
rapes
brutal force
starvation
child labor
breaking families apart

You must be very competitive, PP. but for all the wrong reasons . . .

Um and how many rapes, murders, and robberies have blacks committed against whites? They commute violent crimes against white demonstrators FAR more frequently than whites against blacks. So we should reward them?

Well, if we're trying to keep score, AAs have a long way to catch up. Look out, whitey.

Most AAs have slaveowner ancestry as well. This is something that many AAs seem to conveniently forget about whenever they can beat white people over the head about slavery.

Maybe they'd like to forget the fact that their great-great-great-grandmothers were raped by those slaveowners.

I think it's more like they'd like they'd like to forget that their great-great-great grandfather was a rapist and a slaveowner, but they only identify with the grandmother to absolve their ancestry of any implication of being involved with slavery. The problem is that if one of your ancestors was conceived by rape, that means that you are a direct descendant of the rapist as well. I understand it's not something people want to think about, but it's something that's only fair to point it out when a black person starts holding the "your ancestors were slaveowners/your ancestors raped my ancestors" card over a white person's head. Those evil slaveowning rapists are YOUR ancestors, YOUR family, YOUR blood -- not necessarily mine.

Ah, so black people should CELEBRATE slavery and their slave-owner ancestry? Now I get it.

FFS.

Here's an idea: Maybe one of the reasons many mixed-race people consider themselves black is because their white ancestors refused to acknowledge them and so they were reared by and among black/mixed race people. And maybe it also has something to do with the fact that descendants of slavery often have darker skin and so are considered/treated by everyone they meet as "black," regardless of their ancestry. Or maybe you're forgetting about the one-drop rule?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are good at making assumptions. I don't have to be black to make a case for Affirmative Action. Holocaust is bad but not nearly as bad as slavery which went on for centuries and killed millions of blacks and deprived them the very humanity you take for granted. It is much much worse than Holocaust. No one said everything is someone else's fault. But slavery, jim crow, cop shooting of unarmed blacks, harsh criminal justice reserved for minor black crimes are all on the hands of systemic racism.

oh

Here we go again. Let's see whose history is worse - descendants of slaves or descendants of the Holocaust.

lynchings
gas chambers
rapes
brutal force
starvation
child labor
breaking families apart

You must be very competitive, PP. but for all the wrong reasons . . .

Um and how many rapes, murders, and robberies have blacks committed against whites? They commute violent crimes against white demonstrators FAR more frequently than whites against blacks. So we should reward them?

Well, if we're trying to keep score, AAs have a long way to catch up. Look out, whitey.

Most AAs have slaveowner ancestry as well. This is something that many AAs seem to conveniently forget about whenever they can beat white people over the head about slavery.

This is the typical defense of the coward. A heinous crime is justified because someone else committed it too. And it's such an exaggeration that blacks were slave owners in America. Even if it was true it pales in comparison to the scale of white slave owners.

Did someone say that slavery was justified? And you are clearly not understanding the point. The point is not that some "blacks were slave owners." The point is that many blacks like to point out that their ancestors were raped by cruel white slaveowners, while conveniently omitting the logical implication that this means that they themselves are descendants of those cruel white slaveowners and are in no position to be condemning other people's ancestry.

So are you saying if a black man rapes your wife and your daughter then your progeny will claim black ancestry as as theirs and celebrate it.

It doesn't matter what they "claim" or "celebrate." If you are the product of a rape, your father is a rapist. It doesn't matter if you "claim" or "celebrate" him. He is your father. You may not like him, but you are his descendent and there is nothing you can do about it. If your white great-great-great grandfather raped your black great-great-great grandmother, you are just as much a descendant of the white rapist as the black victim. He is just as much as part of your family as she is.

My point is not that descendants of bad people should feel ashamed or guilty. I'm just pointing out the common hypocrisy that so much of black identity is based on "white oppressors enslaved/raped by ancestors" when you are often literally descended from those white oppressors yourself. If white people are implicated by what their ancestors did, then so are you.

That would be fine and dandy if the issue at hand where how to fill out the family tree or who to research on ancestry.com. But the issue at hand is whether there is a lasting legacy for descendants of slavery. Are you arguing that people of mixed race have never been victims of discrimination because they can say to the cop who stops them or the bus driver who sends them to the back of the bus or neighborhood association that won't sell them a home, "I'm actually part white, so lucky me! Your discriminatory rules don't apply!" ??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative action cannot continue indefinitely. Considering that blacks were getting preferential treatment in the 1970s, we are now on the third generation getting into college with standards lowered to allow it. Jews and Asians immigrated here, and even among the poor, uneducated ones, their kids went to college on their own merits. How many more generations is this supposed to last?

I support color-blind, income-based affirmative action. Let's give all bright poor kids a chance, regardless of race.

How about when blacks are not disproportionately stopped by cops and killed? How about when blacks are not disproportionately given jail term for the same minor drug crime that whites get away with community service? How about when blacks are not viewed with negative stereotype no matter their own personal qualities? How about when blacks are allowed to get the same access to good schools instead of the poor school districts they are isolated to thus perpetuating their permanent underclass status? How about when the last vestige of racism is rooted out?

I can go on but the point is whites assume that just because there is no slavery or Jim Crow suddenly life for blacks became heavenly. Blacks suffer through the effects of subtle, systemic racism to this day. All minorities face some form of racism but blacks and Hispanics the most. Asians face racism when climbing through the ranks but that has slowly changed with more asian CEOs.

How about black put some efforts and try not to get to jail at all? How about creating a positive stereotype about your race by actually doing something positive?
As to the schools, it is what your kids make out of it. Asians kids get to the schools and make them the best performing schools in the district. How about black kids start pulling their school rating up instead just redistricting to the different school and bringing it down?
Why are you assuming that white folks' lives are heavenly? It is hard work, for both, parents and children. But for some reason, white and Asians are willing to put a hard work, and blacks are demanding everything is to be given to them. Blacks suffer through the effects of their own judgement and choices they are making, and then call it racism. Yes, all races are facing difficulties in life. But some races just work harder and that is why you see the result of their hard work (more asian CEOs), while the other races just blaming every one else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It pretty simple.

Elite schools have figured out that the White privileged class is not always the best source of genius, talent, creativity and innovation. These things come in many forms and from may places. Holistic admission policies are just better at identifying folks with these factors.

This thread kind of bears out the selfish nature of the argument. Not one White anti-AA has argued about why their kids benefit the campus or what their kids bring to the table that contributes to the educational experience of those around them. All they talk about is opportunities that are being take from them - that they are being cheated. The Pro AA crowd talks in terms of a more diverse campus and that resulting in a positive experience for all students.

I hear a lot of the pro-AA crowd (speaking of a system intended to benefit blacks, since AA could be based on income, which I prefer) talk about cops killing blacks and the legacy of slavery, and defending preferential admissions treatment for those reasons. I haven't heard a lot about diversity resulting in a positive experience for all students.

OTOH, I hear a lot of the anti-AA crowd talk about giving poor people more of chance, white or black. That's what I support.

Anonymous wrote:It pretty simple.

Elite schools have figured out that the White privileged class is not always the best source of genius, talent, creativity and innovation. These things come in many forms and from may places. Holistic admission policies are just better at identifying folks with these factors.

This thread kind of bears out the selfish nature of the argument. Not one White anti-AA has argued about why their kids benefit the campus or what their kids bring to the table that contributes to the educational experience of those around them. All they talk about is opportunities that are being take from them - that they are being cheated. The Pro AA crowd talks in terms of a more diverse campus and that resulting in a positive experience for all students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I encourage all African-American's in this thread who are pointlessly debating with many posters who are stomping and cheering in celebration of this recent shift in focus by the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to consider the following...

This recent release of Segregation 2.0 could actually be beneficial for HBCU's as threats of litigation, costly reporting requirements or federal funding reductions could compel predominantly white Ivy League and large state universities to reduce the number of minority entrants, which could bolster enrollment at highly selective HBCU's like Howard University and Spelman College, and large public HBCU's like North Carolina A&T and Florida A&M.

Don't believe the hype people. Affirmative action being picked off by judicial conservatism at the highest levels may seem like a bad idea, but for the schools that exclusively serve the people whom will most be affected by its demise, it may reintroduce HBCU value to the nation and world. #LookForTheSilverLining

Thank you. Both my parents attended HBCUs because they were forbidden from attending the flagship universities in their state. I attended a HBCU grad school BY CHOICE. If you think back on it, aside from the Ivy League, these schools attracted the best and the brightest because they were most welcome at these schools. I want to see kids go wherever they want and do not want to see them arbitrarily shut out of schools - but I wish more would see the benefit of HBCU's.

Yeah, my dad was forbidden from attending an Ivy in the 1950s. They had a strict quota on Jews.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative action cannot continue indefinitely. Considering that blacks were getting preferential treatment in the 1970s, we are now on the third generation getting into college with standards lowered to allow it. Jews and Asians immigrated here, and even among the poor, uneducated ones, their kids went to college on their own merits. How many more generations is this supposed to last?

I support color-blind, income-based affirmative action. Let's give all bright poor kids a chance, regardless of race.

How about when blacks are not disproportionately stopped by cops and killed? How about when blacks are not disproportionately given jail term for the same minor drug crime that whites get away with community service? How about when blacks are not viewed with negative stereotype no matter their own personal qualities? How about when blacks are allowed to get the same access to good schools instead of the poor school districts they are isolated to thus perpetuating their permanent underclass status? How about when the last vestige of racism is rooted out?

I can go on but the point is whites assume that just because there is no slavery or Jim Crow suddenly life for blacks became heavenly. Blacks suffer through the effects of subtle, systemic racism to this day. All minorities face some form of racism but blacks and Hispanics the most. Asians face racism when climbing through the ranks but that has slowly changed with more asian CEOs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Same OP as above. I don't know, but I would also guess that it was strong - and for the same reason that the Jews had/have strong family units - survival.

But that begs the next question. Why have the Jews maintained their strong emphasis on intact families, yet in recent years there has been a breakdown iin intact black families. Any idea why?

Families were ripped apart and sold off, women raped by their masters or task-masters etc. The idea of a cohesive family unit among slaves is laughable if it wasn't so outrageous that you would even suggest it.

No. You misunderstand.

I'm not saying the families were intact. I'm saying the desire for intact family units was strong. We are talking about the values.

What the FUCK are you talking about? Are you really this lacking in empathy? I'm not agreeing with your notion that AA slaves had less of a "desire" for intact family units. But if they did, who could blame them? Why would you bother investing your hopes and dreams in a family if it had no social standing whatsoever? If, in fact, it could be a detriment, not an advantage? In terms of basic survival and self-preservation, how would having a family help a slave? It would be much easier to have fewer emotional attachments in that environment. Then it might be less painful when a fellow slave was sold or raped or beaten or tortured or killed. Why would you want to have children, to suffer as you were suffering? And this kind of existence went on for GENERATIONS. Would it really be surprising if there were long-lasting ramifications of that?

Do you think Jewish women in concentration camps were happy they had children to suffer as they were suffering? You think it made it easier on them to know that somewhere their parents were being gassed, their daughters were being raped, their husbands were slave labor? I'm guessing having a strong family unit at that time was more painful than joyful. How many may have thought, "I would rather they be dead than suffer this." It was a period of terrible inhumanity, terrible suffering....but relative to slavery in the US, it was for a very short time.

The legacy of slavery and discrimination in this country is still with us in a way that is very unique. It exists on so many different levels it is hard to fully describe and quantify. But here's one tangible way that continues to haunt us. In large part because of discrimination, black people have been more likely to live in substandard housing in dense urban areas. Those areas have been and continue to be polluted with high levels of lead--in the paint, in the soil. Children exposed to high levels of lead or to lower levels over long periods of time have a myriad of health, developmental, and intellectual issues that continue throughout their lives. That exposure affects people's ability to succeed in school, in the workplace, in life. Here are the findings of one recent study:

We consider a new source of racial disparities in test scores: African American students’
disproportionate exposure to environmental toxins, and, in particular, lead. Using a unique
individual-level dataset of children’s preschool lead levels linked with future educational
outcomes for children in RI, we document significant declines in racial disparities in child lead
levels since 1997, due largely to state policies aimed at reducing lead hazards in homes.
Exploiting the change in child lead levels as a result of the policy, we generate causal estimates
of the impact of preschool lead levels on reading and math test scores through grade 8 in an IV
framework. We find that a 5 ug/dl increase in child lead levels reduces test scores by 30-60
percent of a standard deviation, depending on the specification. The effects are strongest in the
lower tail of the test score distribution and do not fade over time. We calculate that the decline in
racial disparities in lead explains between 37 and 76% of the decline in racial disparities in test
scores witnessed over the past decade in RI.

http://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/aizer_feb_12_2015.pdf

So while today, AA children might be less likely to suffer the effects of lead exposure than they used to be, their parents absolutely were more likely to suffer than parents of white children. And if you believe parenting and families have a critical impact on children's success, then you can see that having a parent who continues to suffer from childhood exposure to lead could be problematic. This is just one way that the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow might continue to affect black children today, even if discrimination were no longer an issue.

I didn't even read past your first sentence because you got what I said completely wrong. I think you're so furious that you misread statements by whites because you are looking for negativity.

I SAID the desire for intact families among black slaves was strong. So what do you say? You say you disagree with my notion that slaves had less of a desire for strong families! Complete opposite to what I said. I stopped reading at that point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I encourage all African-American's in this thread who are pointlessly debating with many posters who are stomping and cheering in celebration of this recent shift in focus by the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to consider the following...

This recent release of Segregation 2.0 could actually be beneficial for HBCU's as threats of litigation, costly reporting requirements or federal funding reductions could compel predominantly white Ivy League and large state universities to reduce the number of minority entrants, which could bolster enrollment at highly selective HBCU's like Howard University and Spelman College, and large public HBCU's like North Carolina A&T and Florida A&M.

Don't believe the hype people. Affirmative action being picked off by judicial conservatism at the highest levels may seem like a bad idea, but for the schools that exclusively serve the people whom will most be affected by its demise, it may reintroduce HBCU value to the nation and world. #LookForTheSilverLining

Thank you. Both my parents attended HBCUs because they were forbidden from attending the flagship universities in their state. I attended a HBCU grad school BY CHOICE. If you think back on it, aside from the Ivy League, these schools attracted the best and the brightest because they were most welcome at these schools. I want to see kids go wherever they want and do not want to see them arbitrarily shut out of schools - but I wish more would see the benefit of HBCU's.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Same OP as above. I don't know, but I would also guess that it was strong - and for the same reason that the Jews had/have strong family units - survival.

But that begs the next question. Why have the Jews maintained their strong emphasis on intact families, yet in recent years there has been a breakdown iin intact black families. Any idea why?

Families were ripped apart and sold off, women raped by their masters or task-masters etc. The idea of a cohesive family unit among slaves is laughable if it wasn't so outrageous that you would even suggest it.

No. You misunderstand.

I'm not saying the families were intact. I'm saying the desire for intact family units was strong. We are talking about the values.

What the FUCK are you talking about? Are you really this lacking in empathy? I'm not agreeing with your notion that AA slaves had less of a "desire" for intact family units. But if they did, who could blame them? Why would you bother investing your hopes and dreams in a family if it had no social standing whatsoever? If, in fact, it could be a detriment, not an advantage? In terms of basic survival and self-preservation, how would having a family help a slave? It would be much easier to have fewer emotional attachments in that environment. Then it might be less painful when a fellow slave was sold or raped or beaten or tortured or killed. Why would you want to have children, to suffer as you were suffering? And this kind of existence went on for GENERATIONS. Would it really be surprising if there were long-lasting ramifications of that?

Do you think Jewish women in concentration camps were happy they had children to suffer as they were suffering? You think it made it easier on them to know that somewhere their parents were being gassed, their daughters were being raped, their husbands were slave labor? I'm guessing having a strong family unit at that time was more painful than joyful. How many may have thought, "I would rather they be dead than suffer this." It was a period of terrible inhumanity, terrible suffering....but relative to slavery in the US, it was for a very short time.

The legacy of slavery and discrimination in this country is still with us in a way that is very unique. It exists on so many different levels it is hard to fully describe and quantify. But here's one tangible way that continues to haunt us. In large part because of discrimination, black people have been more likely to live in substandard housing in dense urban areas. Those areas have been and continue to be polluted with high levels of lead--in the paint, in the soil. Children exposed to high levels of lead or to lower levels over long periods of time have a myriad of health, developmental, and intellectual issues that continue throughout their lives. That exposure affects people's ability to succeed in school, in the workplace, in life. Here are the findings of one recent study:

We consider a new source of racial disparities in test scores: African American students’
disproportionate exposure to environmental toxins, and, in particular, lead. Using a unique
individual-level dataset of children’s preschool lead levels linked with future educational
outcomes for children in RI, we document significant declines in racial disparities in child lead
levels since 1997, due largely to state policies aimed at reducing lead hazards in homes.
Exploiting the change in child lead levels as a result of the policy, we generate causal estimates
of the impact of preschool lead levels on reading and math test scores through grade 8 in an IV
framework. We find that a 5 ug/dl increase in child lead levels reduces test scores by 30-60
percent of a standard deviation, depending on the specification. The effects are strongest in the
lower tail of the test score distribution and do not fade over time. We calculate that the decline in
racial disparities in lead explains between 37 and 76% of the decline in racial disparities in test
scores witnessed over the past decade in RI.

http://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/aizer_feb_12_2015.pdf

So while today, AA children might be less likely to suffer the effects of lead exposure than they used to be, their parents absolutely were more likely to suffer than parents of white children. And if you believe parenting and families have a critical impact on children's success, then you can see that having a parent who continues to suffer from childhood exposure to lead could be problematic. This is just one way that the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow might continue to affect black children today, even if discrimination were no longer an issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I encourage all African-American's in this thread who are pointlessly debating with many posters who are stomping and cheering in celebration of this recent shift in focus by the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division to consider the following...

This recent release of Segregation 2.0 could actually be beneficial for HBCU's as threats of litigation, costly reporting requirements or federal funding reductions could compel predominantly white Ivy League and large state universities to reduce the number of minority entrants, which could bolster enrollment at highly selective HBCU's like Howard University and Spelman College, and large public HBCU's like North Carolina A&T and Florida A&M.

Don't believe the hype people. Affirmative action being picked off by judicial conservatism at the highest levels may seem like a bad idea, but for the schools that exclusively serve the people whom will most be affected by its demise, it may reintroduce HBCU value to the nation and world. #LookForTheSilverLining

Thank you. Both my parents attended HBCUs because they were forbidden from attending the flagship universities in their state. I attended a HBCU grad school BY CHOICE. If you think back on it, aside from the Ivy League, these schools attracted the best and the brightest because they were most welcome at these schools. I want to see kids go wherever they want and do not want to see them arbitrarily shut out of schools - but I wish more would see the benefit of HBCU's.