You're talking in extremes, OP. The brain was not thrown together as a matter of chance. It was built by genetic code from billions of years of natural selection and evolution.

Your brain analogy is problematic. Random mutation is exactly how natural selection works. And the dame with neural networks. What you are missing is that if successful random changes propagate via a feedback loop then great things can come out of randomness.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Just want to be sure I am clear in my understanding of the unbelievers' position on justice:

There is no true justice, just as there is no God. Some people make out well during their one shot at life, and some do not. It is what it is. The best we can do is try to help people live life well, freely, and with happiness, but fact is, it may not work out that way. At least they got their one chance.

Is that right?

Oh, jeez. This better be crazy-good.

Yikes, now I am bound to disappoint

The nonbelievers have rejected the argument below as the "wishful thinking" argument:

God is just.

Therefore his dealings with us must be just.

But there is great injustice in this life. (Evil does well and good suffers.)

Therefore, this life cannot be all that there is.

Certainly sounds like wishful thinking to me. I agree with the nonbelievers. So let's start over.

Humans seek justice (through the legal system, through their own work making the world a better place).

But there is great injustice in this life. (Despite our best efforts, evil does well and good suffers.)

So justice cannot be found in this life.

Either justice is found in something beyond this life, or justice is simply not met by reality.

One or the other, not both.

So perhaps our demand for justice is just a subjective quirk of the human psyche. There is no foundation in reality for our instinct to seek justice. No justification for that drive. Seeking justice is a subjective wish we may have, a personal preference, but not an objective reality.

So we may feel slavery is unjust, but there is no reality to match that feeling. There is a price to pay for denying the existence of justice. How can we take justice seriously when we know it is just a feeling, not real?

So these ideas are all connected, inextricably. If this is all there is, we are left bereft of things most human beings find essential. If there is more than what we have right here, we need to know about it.

So then we should readdress materialism. That this is all there is.

Think of the human brain as a computer. A computer that has been programmed by chance, like throwing things blindfolded at the motherboard, could not be trusted. The human brain, too, could not be trusted if it were tossed together like a salad of chance. If materialism is true, the chance couplings of heredity and environment, of genes and social conditioning, have thrown together a brain that is a compilation of physical causes only. So then it destroys its own credentials. If the brain is blind random chances of atoms come together, we have no reason to trust it when it tells us about what it perceives. There is no reason for believing it to be true, because all judgments would be equally and totally the result of nonrational forces. "If thought is [a brain] motion, how should anyone think more truly than the wind blows?"

If materialism is not true, there could be an immaterial reality. Decay and change and mortality are found in material things. Immaterial things do not need to be subject to those rules. One such immaterial thing could be the soul.

This soul is not limited to this life, the physical life. It is beyond this life. The soul could experience justice beyond this life. And that justice could be perfect.

But it has to be one or the other. If materialism, so be it. But the price to pay for that is high. Much higher than the PPs have considered, I think.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Just want to be sure I am clear in my understanding of the unbelievers' position on justice:

There is no true justice, just as there is no God. Some people make out well during their one shot at life, and some do not. It is what it is. The best we can do is try to help people live life well, freely, and with happiness, but fact is, it may not work out that way. At least they got their one chance.

Is that right?

I'd agree with all but possibly your definition of "true justice". There is justice, it's just not absolute. Doesn't the bible say all sin is equal. So, the person stealing food would receive the same eternal damnation as the child rapist/killer? That's not true justice.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Just want to be sure I am clear in my understanding of the unbelievers' position on justice:

There is no true justice, just as there is no God. Some people make out well during their one shot at life, and some do not. It is what it is. The best we can do is try to help people live life well, freely, and with happiness, but fact is, it may not work out that way. At least they got their one chance.

Is that right?

Oh, jeez. This better be crazy-good.

OP again. Just want to be sure I am clear in my understanding of the unbelievers' position on justice:

There is no true justice, just as there is no God. Some people make out well during their one shot at life, and some do not. It is what it is. The best we can do is try to help people live life well, freely, and with happiness, but fact is, it may not work out that way. At least they got their one chance.

Is that right?

I have to agree with the PP. Fate, destiny and god's will have been used as cop-outs by some when real action is needed now.

<i>Recent PPs have said perfect justice is wishful thinking, and no argument for God. Let us say that is so, for the moment. There is no God. There is no perfect justice. What you see is what you get. Before conception, there was no you. After the last flicker of the brain, there is no you. Nothingness before, and nothingness after.

How, then, do nonbelievers deal with the unceasing injustices of human life on earth? </i>

In all, the positives of existence outweight the negatives.

The trillions and trillions of chance encounters of humans, and their eggs and sperm, that led to the existence of one single human being at one moment in time (putting aside the trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of chance encounters of matter and energy that had to happen for the physical universe before any organic life was possible), and this one human being gets this one chance at life, this one opportunity at existence, so for that one person, who is completely unique in time and space and matter, this is it.

Hey! That was well-put. We'll convert you to Secular Humanistic Atheism, yet! It is pretty amazing, though. And yes, what a great thing to be alive!

And then another human being takes their life.

Fortunately, this rarely happens to individuals. So I don't particularly worry about it. When it does happen, I fight for government policies, and support private organizations, that try to mitigate this problem of injustice.

Most of the theists I know sort of shrug their shoulders and say, "Don't worry, chum! Jesus will get ya back in the next life!" and walk blithely on their way.

Justice in the afterlife is essentially a way of dodging responsibility for working towards social justice in this life.

I live just fine without a guarantee of justice. It's life. People die, people get murdered, kids die of starvation and cancer. What can I do, other than help where I can and have empathy for those who've suffered loss? Not much.

I don't have an expectation for justice or fairness. I don't feel like I've lost something.

OP - the conversation about the afterlife being a flawed form of justice has been going on for a page or two.

OP here. We have veered way off topic, but after 30 some pages, that is to be expected.

But the question of perfect justice is related to whether God exists, to be sure. I would very much like to hear nonbelievers take on this.

Recent PPs have said perfect justice is wishful thinking, and no argument for God. Let us say that is so, for the moment. There is no God. There is no perfect justice. What you see is what you get. Before conception, there was no you. After the last flicker of the brain, there is no you. Nothingness before, and nothingness after.

How, then, do nonbelievers deal with the unceasing injustices of human life on earth?

The trillions and trillions of chance encounters of humans, and their eggs and sperm, that led to the existence of one single human being at one moment in time (putting aside the trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of chance encounters of matter and energy that had to happen for the physical universe before any organic life was possible), and this one human being gets this one chance at life, this one opportunity at existence, so for that one person, who is completely unique in time and space and matter, this is it.

And then another human being takes their life. Or their happiness. Or their freedom. And enjoys it. And gets pleasure from it. And is not stopped. In fact, he spends his entire life on earth enjoying himself immensely at the expense of other human beings. Obviously, this happens all the time, always has, always will.

Nonbelievers say, yes. It is what it is. That is all there is.

How can nonbelievers live without justice?

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?

Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?

Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.

Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.

Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.

Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.

Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?

Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.

Wrong! So incredibly wrong! So breathtakingly wrong! Absolutely not!

Lord have mercy, this will require yet another long branch of discussion, but I will carve out some time to explain later today...

That would depend which version of Christianity. Some sects believe there is a magical cut off age where a child automatically goes to heaven if they die before it. Others believe unless a child is baptized they go to purgatory. Others believe they go to hell if not saved.

Regardless the point remains. A horrible evil person who gets "saved" goes to heaven. A good person who is not saved goes to hell.

Salvation is offered to everyone, of all times, all places, all cultures, all degrees of sinfulness. No one is "sent" to hell. Hell is eternity apart from God. God allows us to choose eternal separation from Him, as our free choice. There are no accidental damnations.

Hm hm. So tell me - why do you choose the Islamic hell? By your logic you are choosing those hells by not believing in those gods.

No one chooses hell. I'm not choosing hell. You're assuming that it is "my religion/god or nothing". Everyone chooses what they think is correct, whether it agrees with you or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.

But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?

I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.

There is no such thing as certain justice.

I'm not talking about the legal system. [shudder]. Of course there is no true justice there. And the legal system does not address most of human behavior, anyway.

I'm talking about the idea of justice. Put aside your prejudices about the afterlife. Just hold a mirror up to the notion that this is all that here is.

If that is true, if materialism is true, if we are accidental assemblies of matter and nothing more, do you see how powerful that makes child rapists? Do you really, honestly believe that?

Is there no such thing as justice?

Wouldn't it give every wrongdoer power? I think your definition of "justice" is narrow. I don't buy your idea of divine, universal or guaranteed justice. If the afterlife boogey man is what keeps people from raping children, I don't see how one could claim that's morally superior.

I'm the immediate PP. I wanted to add that a desire for revenge is a normal part of human nature. I'd like to exact revenge on the person that caused so much difficulty and pain with his violence. But, what kind of civilized society condones revenge behavior? It's not right. An eye for an eye is a moral void, catering to emotion and not rationality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.

But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?

I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.

There is no such thing as certain justice.

I'm not talking about the legal system. [shudder]. Of course there is no true justice there. And the legal system does not address most of human behavior, anyway.

I'm talking about the idea of justice. Put aside your prejudices about the afterlife. Just hold a mirror up to the notion that this is all that here is.

If that is true, if materialism is true, if we are accidental assemblies of matter and nothing more, do you see how powerful that makes child rapists? Do you really, honestly believe that?

Is there no such thing as justice?

Wouldn't it give every wrongdoer power? I think your definition of "justice" is narrow. I don't buy your idea of divine, universal or guaranteed justice. If the afterlife boogey man is what keeps people from raping children, I don't see how one could claim that's morally superior.

This whole argument that "God must exist, because otherwise, I'd be extremely disappointed!" is so insubstantial, I can't believe someone is actually making it.

If the the threat of hell is meant to keep the peace here, then why do they not make it plainly visible to everyone? Get a channel on cable or something. At least put out a youtube video.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.

But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?

I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.

There is no such thing as certain justice.

I'm not talking about the legal system. [shudder]. Of course there is no true justice there. And the legal system does not address most of human behavior, anyway.

I'm talking about the idea of justice. Put aside your prejudices about the afterlife. Just hold a mirror up to the notion that this is all that here is.

If that is true, if materialism is true, if we are accidental assemblies of matter and nothing more, do you see how powerful that makes child rapists? Do you really, honestly believe that?

Is there no such thing as justice?

Wouldn't it give every wrongdoer power? I think your definition of "justice" is narrow. I don't buy your idea of divine, universal or guaranteed justice. If the afterlife boogey man is what keeps people from raping children, I don't see how one could claim that's morally superior.

This whole argument that "God must exist, because otherwise, I'd be extremely disappointed!" is so insubstantial, I can't believe someone is actually making it.