Anonymous wrote:Oh God, now you are blaming the same lead based paint and lead solder used in most properties built in the US prior to 1978.

I see you didn't look at the study I linked to. That's a shame. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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You are good at making assumptions. I don't have to be black to make a case for Affirmative Action. Holocaust is bad but not nearly as bad as slavery which went on for centuries and killed millions of blacks and deprived them the very humanity you take for granted. It is much much worse than Holocaust. No one said everything is someone else's fault. But slavery, jim crow, cop shooting of unarmed blacks, harsh criminal justice reserved for minor black crimes are all on the hands of systemic racism.

oh

Here we go again. Let's see whose history is worse - descendants of slaves or descendants of the Holocaust.

lynchings
gas chambers
rapes
brutal force
starvation
child labor
breaking families apart

You must be very competitive, PP. but for all the wrong reasons . . .

Um and how many rapes, murders, and robberies have blacks committed against whites? They commute violent crimes against white demonstrators FAR more frequently than whites against blacks. So we should reward them?

Well, if we're trying to keep score, AAs have a long way to catch up. Look out, whitey.

Most AAs have slaveowner ancestry as well. This is something that many AAs seem to conveniently forget about whenever they can beat white people over the head about slavery.

This is the typical defense of the coward. A heinous crime is justified because someone else committed it too. And it's such an exaggeration that blacks were slave owners in America. Even if it was true it pales in comparison to the scale of white slave owners.

Did someone say that slavery was justified? And you are clearly not understanding the point. The point is not that some "blacks were slave owners." The point is that many blacks like to point out that their ancestors were raped by cruel white slaveowners, while conveniently omitting the logical implication that this means that they themselves are descendants of those cruel white slaveowners and are in no position to be condemning other people's ancestry.

So are you saying if a black man rapes your wife and your daughter then your progeny will claim black ancestry as as theirs and celebrate it.

It doesn't matter what they "claim" or "celebrate." If you are the product of a rape, your father is a rapist. It doesn't matter if you "claim" or "celebrate" him. He is your father. You may not like him, but you are his descendent and there is nothing you can do about it. If your white great-great-great grandfather raped your black great-great-great grandmother, you are just as much a descendant of the white rapist as the black victim. He is just as much as part of your family as she is.

My point is not that descendants of bad people should feel ashamed or guilty. I'm just pointing out the common hypocrisy that so much of black identity is based on "white oppressors enslaved/raped by ancestors" when you are often literally descended from those white oppressors yourself. If white people are implicated by what their ancestors did, then so are you.

That would be fine and dandy if the issue at hand where how to fill out the family tree or who to research on ancestry.com. But the issue at hand is whether there is a lasting legacy for descendants of slavery. Are you arguing that people of mixed race have never been victims of discrimination because they can say to the cop who stops them or the bus driver who sends them to the back of the bus or neighborhood association that won't sell them a home, "I'm actually part white, so lucky me! Your discriminatory rules don't apply!" ??

Anonymous wrote:

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But it is not because that is surefire way to create a permanent underclass citizens with blacks, hispanics and white trash. Asians do well because they come from a very favorable socio-economic background. Once you have that advantage then it matters less which college you get into(an Ivy or Public Ivy). Asians are stuck in a virtuous loop of educated parents make money pass it on to their kids who get top education who make even more money.

But a if black student is denied admission into the top college then its like denying the entire black community for generations after. Blacks are stuck in a negative loop. Blacks don't score well because of social status and are relegated to a a weaker school and the negative loop continues. One or two exceptional student will break this cycle BUT most will not. Is this what you want? Where is upward mobility for blacks?

How is it like denying the entire black community. Why do you only apply community when it comes to black people.

I am Asian and I went to Ivy League school. My parents had to make a lot of sacrifices to get me to where I am. I did not do drugs or skip classes I focused and made all the right choices but are you saying I dont deserve any success in life because I worked hard? I have seen lots of Black kids who squander the opportunities they have, why should they deserve any better? I have also seen other Blacks who have struggled and made the right choices and are doing very well.
People should succeed based on their life choices and hard work and not based on race.

I am asian too and I know for sure asians didn't suffer through the indignity of slavery and Jim Crow. I know Asians weren't systematically disenfranchised en masse when it came to voting. I know Asians weren't stopped from buying a home like the blacks were for various reasons until the 1980s, which stops them from accumulating assets or using home equity to pay for college. I know Asians don't have to live in dire circumstances with drug war happening in the neighborhood. I know Asians don't have to worry about cops shooting them on random traffic stops. I know Asians don't have to overcome the entire negative black stereotypes that blacks have to overcome no matter their own individual qualities.

I can keep going but You won't know how bad it is unless you live in their shoes OR have the compassion to feel some one else's pain.

One correction. Asians were often included in housing racial covenants unless they were domestic servants.

Carry on

That ^pp needs a history lesson. Asians were systematically segregated not that long ago. I read a story about an Indian American who committed suicide back in the early 1900s because the US government denied him the right to own a business and house. He lost everything and then killed himself. Even in sf ca Asian students were not allowed to go to school with white children.

I am the PP. I know asians suffered and still suffer racism. But i was only raising a point that blacks suffered much more and suffer much more even today.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

You are good at making assumptions. I don't have to be black to make a case for Affirmative Action. Holocaust is bad but not nearly as bad as slavery which went on for centuries and killed millions of blacks and deprived them the very humanity you take for granted. It is much much worse than Holocaust. No one said everything is someone else's fault. But slavery, jim crow, cop shooting of unarmed blacks, harsh criminal justice reserved for minor black crimes are all on the hands of systemic racism.

oh

Here we go again. Let's see whose history is worse - descendants of slaves or descendants of the Holocaust.

lynchings
gas chambers
rapes
brutal force
starvation
child labor
breaking families apart

You must be very competitive, PP. but for all the wrong reasons . . .

Um and how many rapes, murders, and robberies have blacks committed against whites? They commute violent crimes against white demonstrators FAR more frequently than whites against blacks. So we should reward them?

Well, if we're trying to keep score, AAs have a long way to catch up. Look out, whitey.

Most AAs have slaveowner ancestry as well. This is something that many AAs seem to conveniently forget about whenever they can beat white people over the head about slavery.

Maybe they'd like to forget the fact that their great-great-great-grandmothers were raped by those slaveowners.

I think it's more like they'd like they'd like to forget that their great-great-great grandfather was a rapist and a slaveowner, but they only identify with the grandmother to absolve their ancestry of any implication of being involved with slavery. The problem is that if one of your ancestors was conceived by rape, that means that you are a direct descendant of the rapist as well. I understand it's not something people want to think about, but it's something that's only fair to point it out when a black person starts holding the "your ancestors were slaveowners/your ancestors raped my ancestors" card over a white person's head. Those evil slaveowning rapists are YOUR ancestors, YOUR family, YOUR blood -- not necessarily mine.

Ah, so black people should CELEBRATE slavery and their slave-owner ancestry? Now I get it.

FFS.

Here's an idea: Maybe one of the reasons many mixed-race people consider themselves black is because their white ancestors refused to acknowledge them and so they were reared by and among black/mixed race people. And maybe it also has something to do with the fact that descendants of slavery often have darker skin and so are considered/treated by everyone they meet as "black," regardless of their ancestry. Or maybe you're forgetting about the one-drop rule?

It pretty simple.

Elite schools have figured out that the White privileged class is not always the best source of genius, talent, creativity and innovation. These things come in many forms and from may places. Holistic admission policies are just better at identifying folks with these factors.

This thread kind of bears out the selfish nature of the argument. Not one White anti-AA has argued about why their kids benefit the campus or what their kids bring to the table that contributes to the educational experience of those around them. All they talk about is opportunities that are being take from them - that they are being cheated. The Pro AA crowd talks in terms of a more diverse campus and that resulting in a positive experience for all students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not even white and I agree with this policy. There is no reason to discriminate against a qualified white student

Discrimination is never okay.

Switching gears: at what point should affirmative action cease to apply?

Do the American born children of a successful American-raised Latino/Indian/Asian/whatever Doctor/lawyer/whatever who are raised in Bethesda really need another academic edge when applying to college simply because of their race? Isn't attendance at a W school enough?

Shouldn't affirmative action focus on socioeconomics rather than race? Shouldn't the goal be to level the playing field by giving the kid who grew up at a disadvantage a boost? That has everything to do with money, and nothing to do with race.

Why should kids from affluent, upper middle class or even solidly middle class get a boost just because they aren't white? Why not limit this to those who truly have the cards stacked against them...including poor whites?

Question: What evidence do you have that poor whites aren't given a leg up in the admissions process? I know 2 people involved in admissions (at two different well-regarded universities) who would say that they absolutely do. And even with "need-blind" admissions, there are plenty of clues in any application that identify a kid from a poor family, no matter what color the kid is.

The problem is not that white kids from poor families aren't accepted to college. The problem is that, as with black kids from poor families, NOT VERY MANY OF THEM APPLY. That's why a university looking for a diverse student body often accepts kids of color from middle and upper middle and upper class families. Those are the kids who are applying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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But it is not because that is surefire way to create a permanent underclass citizens with blacks, hispanics and white trash. Asians do well because they come from a very favorable socio-economic background. Once you have that advantage then it matters less which college you get into(an Ivy or Public Ivy). Asians are stuck in a virtuous loop of educated parents make money pass it on to their kids who get top education who make even more money.

But a if black student is denied admission into the top college then its like denying the entire black community for generations after. Blacks are stuck in a negative loop. Blacks don't score well because of social status and are relegated to a a weaker school and the negative loop continues. One or two exceptional student will break this cycle BUT most will not. Is this what you want? Where is upward mobility for blacks?

How is it like denying the entire black community. Why do you only apply community when it comes to black people.

I am Asian and I went to Ivy League school. My parents had to make a lot of sacrifices to get me to where I am. I did not do drugs or skip classes I focused and made all the right choices but are you saying I dont deserve any success in life because I worked hard? I have seen lots of Black kids who squander the opportunities they have, why should they deserve any better? I have also seen other Blacks who have struggled and made the right choices and are doing very well.
People should succeed based on their life choices and hard work and not based on race.

I am asian too and I know for sure asians didn't suffer through the indignity of slavery and Jim Crow. I know Asians weren't systematically disenfranchised en masse when it came to voting. I know Asians weren't stopped from buying a home like the blacks were for various reasons until the 1980s, which stops them from accumulating assets or using home equity to pay for college. I know Asians don't have to live in dire circumstances with drug war happening in the neighborhood. I know Asians don't have to worry about cops shooting them on random traffic stops. I know Asians don't have to overcome the entire negative black stereotypes that blacks have to overcome no matter their own individual qualities.

I can keep going but You won't know how bad it is unless you live in their shoes OR have the compassion to feel some one else's pain.

One correction. Asians were often included in housing racial covenants unless they were domestic servants.

Carry on

That ^pp needs a history lesson. Asians were systematically segregated not that long ago. I read a story about an Indian American who committed suicide back in the early 1900s because the US government denied him the right to own a business and house. He lost everything and then killed himself. Even in sf ca Asian students were not allowed to go to school with white children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not one of those insecure Negroes that harbors hatred or resentment for white folks for their privilege or my plight. I'm not the type to cling to negative sentiments or allow such thoughts to permeate my peace of mind. I know that blacks have been thru hell and I know that many blacks are still mired in hellish conditions to this day - sadly sometimes their problems and predicaments are self-imposed.

But I also know that blacks are still here still advancing and achieving and aspiring and attaining. I know that all efforts to keep blacks down permanently have failed and I know that all obstacles and barriers to hold blacks back ultimately were and will be overcome.

So having said all that, basically the point I'm trying to make is that no matter what negative caricature of the Negro it is that some may have etched in their brains that they base opinions and generalizations of all black people on - whether it be the ghetto thug or the single parent or whatever - that's not going to deter black people nor will it ultimately define black people.

I may be in the minority on this but despite all the prejudiced presumptions people make I see millions of blacks who are respected educators and remarkable innovators and capable leaders and constant achievers. If some can't see this vast segment of society or aren't inclined to give any credibility to the existence of educated or successful black people then that's their choice - but Affirmative Action or not I guarantee you that segment of educated and successful black people will persevere and prevail and proliferate. That's what blacks have always done.

Well, I'm in the minority with you.

I actually think people who consider themselves educated but still hang on to the idea that some aren't deserving of an education are in their own minority, or will be soon.

From your mouth to God's ear.

--white person

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative action cannot continue indefinitely. Considering that blacks were getting preferential treatment in the 1970s, we are now on the third generation getting into college with standards lowered to allow it. Jews and Asians immigrated here, and even among the poor, uneducated ones, their kids went to college on their own merits. How many more generations is this supposed to last?

I support color-blind, income-based affirmative action. Let's give all bright poor kids a chance, regardless of race.

How about when blacks are not disproportionately stopped by cops and killed? How about when blacks are not disproportionately given jail term for the same minor drug crime that whites get away with community service? How about when blacks are not viewed with negative stereotype no matter their own personal qualities? How about when blacks are allowed to get the same access to good schools instead of the poor school districts they are isolated to thus perpetuating their permanent underclass status? How about when the last vestige of racism is rooted out?

I can go on but the point is whites assume that just because there is no slavery or Jim Crow suddenly life for blacks became heavenly. Blacks suffer through the effects of subtle, systemic racism to this day. All minorities face some form of racism but blacks and Hispanics the most. Asians face racism when climbing through the ranks but that has slowly changed with more asian CEOs.

1) Blacks are not disproportionately stopped and killed by cops. Whenever they look at the data they find that blacks are less likely to be shot than whites in similar circumstances. Blacks are about 25% of the people shot by cops but they commit 40+% of the violent crime. The proportion of blacks shot by police has been going steadily down for the last 30 years.

There's a really good piece talking about this subject here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

2) Schools in predominantly black areas get the same funding that other school systems get. It's the students that make the schools "bad".

Don't know what to do about the stereotypes, but if young black males weren't 3-10 times more likely to commit most types of crime I'm pretty sure these stereotypes wouldn't exist.

1) You are totally wrong. A 2017 Stanford study says otherwise. Just because statistically blacks commit higher crimes doesn't mean an innocent black person gets shot. Do not post a blogger site for reference because it has zero credibility.

http://news.stanford.edu/2016/06/28/stanford-researchers-develop-new-statistical-test-shows-racial-profiling-police-traffic-stops/

2) This is a total lie. School funding is based on property taxes and obviously schools with wealthier neighborhoods get better teachers, better facilities and funding.

Why did you conveniently ignore the whites getting away with drug crimes which is the core issue due to which black men are not able to be with families. Suddenly drugs are becoming an issue because whites are getting affected. But when blacks were the ones getting affected by drugs nobody cared and infact blacks ere sent to jail for addiction. Now that whites are getting affected you are talking about drug treatment facilities. This is systemic racism.

There are more Blacks and Latinos in college now than at any other time in American history. Whites have been saying that Blacks and Latinos should emphasize education, etc. They are doing it in record numbers. Unwed births of Black and Latino kids are also down from where they were a few years ago. Recent studies have shown that Black father engagement (even in single parent homes) is way up from where it was a few years ago. There are more Black men in college than there are in prison. Hard non-recreational drug use among Blacks is down while it has increased for Whites. Blacks who graduate from college are more actively engaged in community and civic activities in the areas they grew up in than any other race. All these are stats and facts that are readily available on the Internet.

Many Whites are all for equality until their own perceived superiority is threatened. I have said it before but opposition to AA is Whites' last ditch battle to defend the privilege of mediocrity. Elite Whites are fine and will always be fine. It is the Whites that are mediocre or who have otherwise failed to distinguish themselves from other Whites who are most threatened. That is why you can have an incoming class of 1000 students and these Whites are more concerned about the 10-12% URM than they are the admitted White students or the other 90% of the class. You do not hear them complaining about the White students with lower measurables who got in because they assume that those Whites were better in some way - legacy, a better EC, etc.

Oh God, now you are blaming the same lead based paint and lead solder used in most properties built in the US prior to 1978.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Same OP as above. I don't know, but I would also guess that it was strong - and for the same reason that the Jews had/have strong family units - survival.

But that begs the next question. Why have the Jews maintained their strong emphasis on intact families, yet in recent years there has been a breakdown iin intact black families. Any idea why?

Families were ripped apart and sold off, women raped by their masters or task-masters etc. The idea of a cohesive family unit among slaves is laughable if it wasn't so outrageous that you would even suggest it.

Jews faced that in Egypt, no?

Check back with African -Americans in 3000 AD.

This post wins the thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Same OP as above. I don't know, but I would also guess that it was strong - and for the same reason that the Jews had/have strong family units - survival.

But that begs the next question. Why have the Jews maintained their strong emphasis on intact families, yet in recent years there has been a breakdown iin intact black families. Any idea why?

Families were ripped apart and sold off, women raped by their masters or task-masters etc. The idea of a cohesive family unit among slaves is laughable if it wasn't so outrageous that you would even suggest it.

No. You misunderstand.

I'm not saying the families were intact. I'm saying the desire for intact family units was strong. We are talking about the values.

What the FUCK are you talking about? Are you really this lacking in empathy? I'm not agreeing with your notion that AA slaves had less of a "desire" for intact family units. But if they did, who could blame them? Why would you bother investing your hopes and dreams in a family if it had no social standing whatsoever? If, in fact, it could be a detriment, not an advantage? In terms of basic survival and self-preservation, how would having a family help a slave? It would be much easier to have fewer emotional attachments in that environment. Then it might be less painful when a fellow slave was sold or raped or beaten or tortured or killed. Why would you want to have children, to suffer as you were suffering? And this kind of existence went on for GENERATIONS. Would it really be surprising if there were long-lasting ramifications of that?

Do you think Jewish women in concentration camps were happy they had children to suffer as they were suffering? You think it made it easier on them to know that somewhere their parents were being gassed, their daughters were being raped, their husbands were slave labor? I'm guessing having a strong family unit at that time was more painful than joyful. How many may have thought, "I would rather they be dead than suffer this." It was a period of terrible inhumanity, terrible suffering....but relative to slavery in the US, it was for a very short time.

The legacy of slavery and discrimination in this country is still with us in a way that is very unique. It exists on so many different levels it is hard to fully describe and quantify. But here's one tangible way that continues to haunt us. In large part because of discrimination, black people have been more likely to live in substandard housing in dense urban areas. Those areas have been and continue to be polluted with high levels of lead--in the paint, in the soil. Children exposed to high levels of lead or to lower levels over long periods of time have a myriad of health, developmental, and intellectual issues that continue throughout their lives. That exposure affects people's ability to succeed in school, in the workplace, in life. Here are the findings of one recent study:

We consider a new source of racial disparities in test scores: African American students’
disproportionate exposure to environmental toxins, and, in particular, lead. Using a unique
individual-level dataset of children’s preschool lead levels linked with future educational
outcomes for children in RI, we document significant declines in racial disparities in child lead
levels since 1997, due largely to state policies aimed at reducing lead hazards in homes.
Exploiting the change in child lead levels as a result of the policy, we generate causal estimates
of the impact of preschool lead levels on reading and math test scores through grade 8 in an IV
framework. We find that a 5 ug/dl increase in child lead levels reduces test scores by 30-60
percent of a standard deviation, depending on the specification. The effects are strongest in the
lower tail of the test score distribution and do not fade over time. We calculate that the decline in
racial disparities in lead explains between 37 and 76% of the decline in racial disparities in test
scores witnessed over the past decade in RI.

http://economics.yale.edu/sites/default/files/aizer_feb_12_2015.pdf

So while today, AA children might be less likely to suffer the effects of lead exposure than they used to be, their parents absolutely were more likely to suffer than parents of white children. And if you believe parenting and families have a critical impact on children's success, then you can see that having a parent who continues to suffer from childhood exposure to lead could be problematic. This is just one way that the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow might continue to affect black children today, even if discrimination were no longer an issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Opponents of affirmative action typically point to black or Latino students with lower grades and test scores than rejected white applicants.
But grades and standardized test scores are an incomplete and imprecise measure of merit.
No one - including the people who give the grades and write the tests - thinks they should be the only considerations.
Moreover, grades aren’t comparable between schools, so admissions officers also have to consider the difficulty of classes, the competitiveness of schools, and the extent of grade inflation.
Meanwhile, standardized test scores reflect well-documented racial and socioeconomic biases.
There’s no formula for how to account for all of this, so even looking at grades and test scores alone involves an inherently subjective and holistic evaluation.
Lawyers and courts can’t tell a university how to do this.

Exactly. College admissions is subjective and will always remain so for the reasons you mentioned.

As far as I can tell, no one has suggested otherwise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative action cannot continue indefinitely. Considering that blacks were getting preferential treatment in the 1970s, we are now on the third generation getting into college with standards lowered to allow it. Jews and Asians immigrated here, and even among the poor, uneducated ones, their kids went to college on their own merits. How many more generations is this supposed to last?

I support color-blind, income-based affirmative action. Let's give all bright poor kids a chance, regardless of race.

How about when blacks are not disproportionately stopped by cops and killed? How about when blacks are not disproportionately given jail term for the same minor drug crime that whites get away with community service? How about when blacks are not viewed with negative stereotype no matter their own personal qualities? How about when blacks are allowed to get the same access to good schools instead of the poor school districts they are isolated to thus perpetuating their permanent underclass status? How about when the last vestige of racism is rooted out?

I can go on but the point is whites assume that just because there is no slavery or Jim Crow suddenly life for blacks became heavenly. Blacks suffer through the effects of subtle, systemic racism to this day. All minorities face some form of racism but blacks and Hispanics the most. Asians face racism when climbing through the ranks but that has slowly changed with more asian CEOs.

Blacks are not disproportionately stopped and killed by cops. Whenever they look at the data they find that blacks are less likely to be shot than whites in similar circumstances. Blacks are about 25% of the people shot by cops but they commit 40+% of the violent crime. The proportion of blacks shot by police has been going steadily down for the last 30 years.

There's a really good piece talking about this subject here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

Schools in predominantly black areas get the same funding that other school systems get. It's the students that make the schools "bad".

Don't know what to do about the stereotypes, but if young black males weren't 3-10 times more likely to commit most types of crime I'm pretty sure these stereotypes wouldn't exist.