Anonymous wrote:The most absurd post here was the one which implied that one should not blame a woman for having sex without birth control because she is human and it is natural to give way to her urges.

Ha, I wrote that post you're making that absurd claim about. My point was that it is foreseeable that people have unprotected sex and therefore a failure in our birth control policy because we know ways to reduce the risk of those bad/poorly informed choices (free long-term birth control). Blame really has no place here.

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Anonymous wrote:Zygotes. Embryos. Inconvenient. Wrong timing. My right to choose to get rid of it.

No regrets? Same with Dylann Roof. He thought it was his right to express his anger the way he did. Beyond disgusting.

Those nine people that Dylan Roof murdered weren't part of his own body, but thanks for sharing.

Anonymous wrote:Zygotes. Embryos. Inconvenient. Wrong timing. My right to choose to get rid of it.

No regrets? Same with Dylann Roof. He thought it was his right to express his anger the way he did. Beyond disgusting.

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Anonymous wrote:The most absurd post here was the one which implied that one should not blame a woman for having sex without birth control because she is human and it is natural to give way to her urges.

I've read this whole thread and don't remember a post like that, but thanks for coming and letting us know you're insane.

I also didn't see a post like that, and totally agree that this post is insane. First, not everyone who has an unplanned pregnancy arrives there because they are so sexed up they can't control their "urges." I was a 39 year old married mom of 2 children taking birth control. It had never failed me to date, though I had recently switched brands. Anyway, most of the time I'm too tired or preoccupied with kids and work and worries to want sex. I'd been with my DH for 16 years at that point - and I loved him - and our approximate 2x a month sex was more of a routine out of love and the desire to be close and maintain a marriage then urges, on either of our parts frankly.

Sex is not always about urges - it's part of a healthy marriage. And we know that statistically, PLENTY of women getting abortions are married moms. And this same group of anti-choice uneducated hillbillies would be the first to blame me if we weren't having regular sex and he had an affair. "Pro-life" is not a thing - it's anti-abortion to punish vile women who can't control themselves. Deep down most of them are no different than the Duggars who blame the woman for tempting men to rape them.

Anonymous wrote:The most absurd post here was the one which implied that one should not blame a woman for having sex without birth control because she is human and it is natural to give way to her urges.

I've read this whole thread and don't remember a post like that, but thanks for coming and letting us know you're insane.

The most absurd post here was the one which implied that one should not blame a woman for having sex without birth control because she is human and it is natural to give way to her urges.

"Pro-life" people are all about black and white, that once sperm meets egg there's a baby and that's that. They like to point out the arbitrariness of when to allow abortion by pointing out the changing dates of viability through science.

Here's the thing. If any of them were placed in a Sophie's Choice situation where they had to save either the life of a 3 year old or the life of a 15 week fetus, none of them would hesitate for a second to choose the 3 year old over the fetus.

Life is messy and complicated and gray, not black and white. And it's the lives already in this world that we need to protect first and foremost. And that includes the lives of the women who find themselves in messy and complicated situations. The state has no businesses forcing them to go through the life and body altering process of pregnancy.

Anonymous wrote:I conceived through IVF - and very, very fortunate to get pregnant and have a healthy baby, even though he spent time in the NICU. The NICU is not a place for sissies; I was a lucky parent of a baby that had the benefits of great care and good luck - no infections, no strokes, not so premature that he faced blindness, deafness, and other challenges to living a full and healthy life. Saw a lot of joy and gratitude during my time there - but I also saw a lot of sorrow.

None of that has to do with eliminating a woman's reproductive choices, however. If anything, pregnancy and my experience as a parent from the harrowing first minutes of my son's birth confirmed that women aren't just vessels for babies and that society benefits from having women make - whenever possible - deliberate choices about whether or not they want to be parents. Moreover, I'm convinced that abortion opponents are actually more concerned with making women culpable for having sex. Much of the rhetoric of virulently anti-choices is about shaming women for having sex. And ultimately, if these "pro lifers" were actually pro life, there would be much more emphasis on prenatal care and child care and schooling and support for children once they're born.

Yes. I'll cop to all this, too. Thanks for speaking it clearly.

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I hope she doesn't. These NICU nurses and medical professionals are amazing people who deal with things you can't possibly imagine. I have a good friend who has worked in the NICU for years and you can't believe the things she has seen. And importantly, these people can legitimately and without agenda tell the truth about the biology of these children/fetuses/whatever label you want to give. Correcting the bullshit opinions passed off as fact. I thank her for that and everything she does.

What your NICU nurse did not tell you, is how much money NICU care costs, and you probably have not been told of the times a NICU infant is allowed to die, as in no longer given treatment.

Are you this stupid? Do you think NICU parents are ignorant of the expense? PP is right - you're awful.
-NICU parent.

All of which has none to do with outlawing abortion at 6 weeks.

No, it doesn't. Our conversation has wandered in some pretty far fields.

I think you can be intimately familiar with the NICU world and support positions typically known as either pro-choice or pro-life. What you can't do -- if you know that world -- is be cavalier about the timing or the human costs (not financial, but to all those involved on a personal level). These are not easy times, and they are not easy decisions. Once you've lived there, as parents and providers do, alongside their charges, you never think about it the same way.

When we talk about the limits of viability, we are talking about a war zone. There really is a hard limit here, because there are limits to oxygen and water and carbon and life, certainly for the foreseeable future.

I'm hardcore pro-choice. I would also give up a good chunk of my taxable income to support true artificial wombs, where a fetus could be moved to an finish growing until stable enough to survive. That would be awesome. It has been done for stretches of time with goat fetuses, believe it or not -- this was as far back as 1996. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/29/magazine/the-artificial-womb-is-born.html We just haven't been able to make it work long enough, and no human trials yet, as far as I know.

Anyway. I will share coffee with adamant pro-life nurses, and respect their points of view and skills. They are not naive.

None of us should be, not if we are advocating for or against legislation here. We should be as marked and thorough as we can be, and we should get our facts straight. if this matter, then it really matters. Do it justice.

I conceived through IVF - and very, very fortunate to get pregnant and have a healthy baby, even though he spent time in the NICU. The NICU is not a place for sissies; I was a lucky parent of a baby that had the benefits of great care and good luck - no infections, no strokes, not so premature that he faced blindness, deafness, and other challenges to living a full and healthy life. Saw a lot of joy and gratitude during my time there - but I also saw a lot of sorrow.

None of that has to do with eliminating a woman's reproductive choices, however. If anything, pregnancy and my experience as a parent from the harrowing first minutes of my son's birth confirmed that women aren't just vessels for babies and that society benefits from having women make - whenever possible - deliberate choices about whether or not they want to be parents. Moreover, I'm convinced that abortion opponents are actually more concerned with making women culpable for having sex. Much of the rhetoric of virulently anti-choices is about shaming women for having sex. And ultimately, if these "pro lifers" were actually pro life, there would be much more emphasis on prenatal care and child care and schooling and support for children once they're born.

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Anonymous wrote:I
I hope she doesn't. These NICU nurses and medical professionals are amazing people who deal with things you can't possibly imagine. I have a good friend who has worked in the NICU for years and you can't believe the things she has seen. And importantly, these people can legitimately and without agenda tell the truth about the biology of these children/fetuses/whatever label you want to give. Correcting the bullshit opinions passed off as fact. I thank her for that and everything she does.

What your NICU nurse did not tell you, is how much money NICU care costs, and you probably have not been told of the times a NICU infant is allowed to die, as in no longer given treatment.

Are you this stupid? Do you think NICU parents are ignorant of the expense? PP is right - you're awful.
-NICU parent.

All of which has none to do with outlawing abortion at 6 weeks.

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Anonymous wrote:I
I hope she doesn't. These NICU nurses and medical professionals are amazing people who deal with things you can't possibly imagine. I have a good friend who has worked in the NICU for years and you can't believe the things she has seen. And importantly, these people can legitimately and without agenda tell the truth about the biology of these children/fetuses/whatever label you want to give. Correcting the bullshit opinions passed off as fact. I thank her for that and everything she does.

What your NICU nurse did not tell you, is how much money NICU care costs, and you probably have not been told of the times a NICU infant is allowed to die, as in no longer given treatment.

treatment is withheld because it's torturing the baby, not due to cost. you are awful.

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Anonymous wrote:
PP here. I appreciate your thoughtful post and the medical info you've shared. I'll add that my nephew was extremely fortunate in that he was born in a hospital known for top-notch, quality NICU care; and we have nurses in our family for extra support.

I think the PP NICU nurse's point is that it is extremely difficult for a micropreemie no matter the quality of care, and that having high level life support technology now is a mixed blessing for some babies.

I'll cop to both. I am always glad to know success stories. We had one ex-preemie herself come back as a NICU nurse, once all grown up. Her isolette picture was still on the wall from an old Christmas card.

I remember ever single one we stopped doing interventions for. It was always because their bodies could not keep up with the harm we were doing to them. None of us, from head neonatologist to kangaroo care volunteer, gave a flying rat's ass about whether it cost too much money.

I used to decorate namecards for them in between charting. Colored pencils in the brightest colors, because it made the isolette look a little more like a baby's space, instead of a place for us.

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Anonymous wrote:Those of you sitting in judgment are pathetic.

Unless you are there to raise those children, provide for them, and support policies that provide the things you aren't willing to do (parental leave, healthcare for children, reasonably priced health care, etc.) you have no right -NONE- to sit in judgment of someone else who has chosen a path you would not. There are LOADS of kids languishing in foster care. Put your money where your vicious mouths are and get involved with those kids who are here and who have no consistent source of love and little advantages.

Is a heartbeat alone life? Maybe. But, it's not a human viable of living outside the womb at 6 weeks. And, that life is second to the woman. Period. It it regrettable, yes. But, again, you folks are generally the ones who also object to free and ready access to health care b/c it offends your delicate sensitivities. You're hypocrites. You're sanctimonious. You're judgmental. You're disgusting.

this doesn't make any sense. It is like saying the lives of the poor are worthless. If you are not middle class, then your life isn't worth living? You can not believe this. It is not better to not have lived at all than to have lived hungry and poor.

And what you seem to be saying is that the lives of women are worth less than the lives of the embryos in their uterus and that the state gets to force them to be hostages to those embryos.

Your statement describing being hostage to an embryo is so very different from my perspective. I can see why we're miles apart on the abortion issue.

Congratulations on never having had a difficult pregnancy, or one that threatened your job, your education, or your financial future. Not everyone can be so lucky.

I posted on the Republicans are mean thread that it seemed to me conservatives lacked the ability to imagine the difficult situations others find themselves in and therefore can't empathize very well. This is a prime example. I love my kids more than anything, tried for years to get pregnant and cherished each of my pregnancies. But I can imagine the terror someone could feel at facing an unwanted pregnancy or one that isn't going to bring a live, healthy child into the world and would never, ever deny that person the right to make her own decisions regarding her future.

I am an Independent that leans conservative and think you are correct that Republicans are less likely to put themselves in the shoes of others less fortunate. They do see things in more black and white while liberals see more shades of gray. That doesn't mean they don't care about other people though. I have a pretty evenly divided mix of liberal and conservative friends and the conservatives donate far more money, time and resources than my liberal friends. That's anecdotal of course but in my experience conservatives aren't cold-hearted uncharitable people. Going back to the abortion issue, a conservative sees abortion as murder. Plain and simple. So while all these old male legislators may have no idea what it is like to be a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, they also can't get past the fact that they see the act as murder. I see both sides that's why it is such a tough call. What I do adamantly believe in though is easy access to birth control. I don't think it's right for Republicans to be anti-abortion and anti-birth control at the same time.

I'm the poster who said I don't view pregnancy as being hostage to an embryo. On a personal basis, I do know the feelings that can arise from having an unplanned pregnancy and am not unsympathetic to women who are in tough circumstances. It's just that I also hold the view that women should protect the growing life that they helped conceive. I do very much agree with your recommendation re easy access to birth control for all men and women.

You do know, don't you?, that the logical extension of the idea that life must be protected from the moment of conception means that all of the most effective forms of birth control are considered by pro-lifers to potentially cause abortion -- all birth control pills, all iuds, all hormonal contraception, all emergency contraception and mifepristone (abortion medication). Any hormonally-based contraception is considered to cause "chemical abortion". Although there is no conclusive scientific proof that hormonal contraception causes the death of fertilized eggs, pro-lifers see it as abortion and think these forms of birth control should be illegal as well.

So, really, the only permissible pro-life forms of birth control are barrier methods, spermicides, natural/withdrawal or abstinence. All of which (except abstinence) have 10-20% failure rates or higher.

So, in this context, I'm not really sure how valuable "easy access to birth control" is when really it means "access to the least effective forms of contraception only."

As a parent who had an accidental pregnancy while using a diaphragm and spermicide (about 80% efficacy -- if only I had known!), I am very concerned about my daughter's future contraceptive options.

I do not see why you include the pill as those that we lose when we go to the "logical conclusion". some nut cases do do that, but it doesn't make sense.

"Some nut cases" are writing legislation.

Just because some nut cases are writing legislation doesn't mean we should lie. The pill doesn't abort fetuses. If we start to lie, then people start to believe 1) that it is okay to lie or 2) that they can not trust anything you say because they caught you in a lie.

Anonymous wrote:I
I hope she doesn't. These NICU nurses and medical professionals are amazing people who deal with things you can't possibly imagine. I have a good friend who has worked in the NICU for years and you can't believe the things she has seen. And importantly, these people can legitimately and without agenda tell the truth about the biology of these children/fetuses/whatever label you want to give. Correcting the bullshit opinions passed off as fact. I thank her for that and everything she does.

What your NICU nurse did not tell you, is how much money NICU care costs, and you probably have not been told of the times a NICU infant is allowed to die, as in no longer given treatment.