Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:55
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Right, since the theists have gotten "God" as far as "maybe he's the Big Bang", we're going to need a bit of evidence that he's got so much as a tissue to offer, much less "salvation".
Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:55
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.
But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?
I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.
There is no such thing as certain justice.
I'm not talking about the legal system. [shudder]. Of course there is no true justice there. And the legal system does not address most of human behavior, anyway.
I'm talking about the idea of justice. Put aside your prejudices about the afterlife. Just hold a mirror up to the notion that this is all that here is.
If that is true, if materialism is true, if we are accidental assemblies of matter and nothing more, do you see how powerful that makes child rapists? Do you really, honestly believe that?
Is there no such thing as justice?
Wouldn't it give every wrongdoer power? I think your definition of "justice" is narrow. I don't buy your idea of divine, universal or guaranteed justice. If the afterlife boogey man is what keeps people from raping children, I don't see how one could claim that's morally superior.
Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:54
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?
Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.
Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.
Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.
Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.
Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?
Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.
Wrong! So incredibly wrong! So breathtakingly wrong! Absolutely not!
Lord have mercy, this will require yet another long branch of discussion, but I will carve out some time to explain later today...
That would depend which version of Christianity. Some sects believe there is a magical cut off age where a child automatically goes to heaven if they die before it. Others believe unless a child is baptized they go to purgatory. Others believe they go to hell if not saved.
Regardless the point remains. A horrible evil person who gets "saved" goes to heaven. A good person who is not saved goes to hell.
Salvation is offered to everyone, of all times, all places, all cultures, all degrees of sinfulness. No one is "sent" to hell. Hell is eternity apart from God. God allows us to choose eternal separation from Him, as our free choice. There are no accidental damnations.
And, for the record, how is "salvation" "offered" to everyone?
(Now we're off the original topic: whether God exists [no evidence; "no" in any kind of practical sense], to whether mainstream Christian doctrine is "true" in some sense [less likely than existence of gods].
Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:50
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I'm not worried about me. Luckily, I am not a sociopath.
I am worried about the sociopath who kidnaps, rapes, tortures, and kills one of my kids and is not apprehended by law enforcement. Actually, even if he were apprehended, tried, convicted, and locked up forever, it wouldn't be justice.
But I guess we are all just cosmic dust, and life isn't fair. I'll comfort myself with that cold, hard truth.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Perhaps you should...Always Look on The Bright Side of Life?
Ok, no more sarcasm. An honest question:
Do you really believe what you are saying? You're not just dabbling in some intellectual pride for kicks? You really believe there is no such thing as justice?
Of course there's justice. People get arrested, sentenced, and serve prison sentences all the time. Or do you mean some sort of perfect, metaphysical, final reckoning? No, that's wishful thinking. To paraphrase Hemingway, "It's pretty to think so."
Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:20
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?
Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.
Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.
Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.
Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.
Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?
Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.
Wrong! So incredibly wrong! So breathtakingly wrong! Absolutely not!
Lord have mercy, this will require yet another long branch of discussion, but I will carve out some time to explain later today...
That would depend which version of Christianity. Some sects believe there is a magical cut off age where a child automatically goes to heaven if they die before it. Others believe unless a child is baptized they go to purgatory. Others believe they go to hell if not saved.
Regardless the point remains. A horrible evil person who gets "saved" goes to heaven. A good person who is not saved goes to hell.
Salvation is offered to everyone, of all times, all places, all cultures, all degrees of sinfulness. No one is "sent" to hell. Hell is eternity apart from God. God allows us to choose eternal separation from Him, as our free choice. There are no accidental damnations.
Anonymous
07/19/2011 09:07
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?
Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.
Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.
Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.
Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.
Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?
Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.
Wrong! So incredibly wrong! So breathtakingly wrong! Absolutely not!
Lord have mercy, this will require yet another long branch of discussion, but I will carve out some time to explain later today...
That would depend which version of Christianity. Some sects believe there is a magical cut off age where a child automatically goes to heaven if they die before it. Others believe unless a child is baptized they go to purgatory. Others believe they go to hell if not saved.
Regardless the point remains. A horrible evil person who gets "saved" goes to heaven. A good person who is not saved goes to hell.
Anonymous
07/19/2011 08:57
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?
Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.
Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.
Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.
Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.
Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?
Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.
Wrong! So incredibly wrong! So breathtakingly wrong! Absolutely not!
Lord have mercy, this will require yet another long branch of discussion, but I will carve out some time to explain later today...
Anonymous
07/19/2011 08:40
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Are you of the jewish faith? Don't they believe that death is the end?
Is the only way you have meaning and hope in your life is through a religion and a belief in the afterlife? That's sad.
Don't some theists believe that some who die go burn in hell for eternity? That's even worse. Do you remember before you were conceived? It wasn't that bad then was it? Same concept. And we live for this life, rather then pining for an afterlife. If anything, that gives even more meaning and hope to the here and now.
Hmmm...except for the child rapists who don't get caught. In their case, there is a lot less meaning and hope.
Assuming you're talking about the Christian god.
Right. The only way uncaught criminals get justice is for god to handle it. Oh wait... unless those uncaught criminals get "saved" then they'd go to heaven. Meanwhile a child starving in Africa goes to hell - right?
Looking to the Christian god for justice doesn't make much sense.
Anonymous
07/19/2011 07:35
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.
But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?
I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.
There is no such thing as certain justice.
I'm not talking about the legal system. [shudder]. Of course there is no true justice there. And the legal system does not address most of human behavior, anyway.
I'm talking about the idea of justice. Put aside your prejudices about the afterlife. Just hold a mirror up to the notion that this is all that here is.
If that is true, if materialism is true, if we are accidental assemblies of matter and nothing more, do you see how powerful that makes child rapists? Do you really, honestly believe that?
Is there no such thing as justice?
Anonymous
07/19/2011 06:18
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.
But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?
I think our court systems deliver a certain amount of justice to some offenders. But, even if an offender converts before being executed, doesn't he "go to heaven"? Even if I believed in an afterlife, that doesn't strike me as just.
There is no such thing as certain justice.
Anonymous
07/18/2011 23:25
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Death is the end of life. I don't believe in any afterlife. It's just final and inevitable. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the life I am living or love the people I love. It's just an end, not hopeless.
Interesting. That idea makes bad people very, very powerful, because then there is no such thing as justice.
Say that a clever man spends his entire adulthood raping and torturing and killing little children. Even if he is caught before he dies, there is nothing anyone could do to him that would get justice for what he did. He is only one man. He has already lived well, unlike his victims, who are just extinguished. And the worst thing we can do to him is extinguish him. Not so bad. He will just cease to be. He won't even know he is gone.
The injustice against the children is permanent and total. Evil wins, every time.
Now I'm depressed.
I'm the PP you're responding to above. I'm all too familiar with injustice against children, having been the victim of a very disturbed man when I was a child. I'd like to believe he will pay for the damage he's caused, but he hasn't and he won't. Life is not fair or just. Like death, it's just a fact of life.
This life, here, is not fair or just. That is true. Jesus himself said that.
But do you really, honestly not believe there is such a thing as justice?
Anonymous
07/18/2011 22:46
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
Death is the end of life. I don't believe in any afterlife. It's just final and inevitable. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the life I am living or love the people I love. It's just an end, not hopeless.
Interesting. That idea makes bad people very, very powerful, because then there is no such thing as justice.
Say that a clever man spends his entire adulthood raping and torturing and killing little children. Even if he is caught before he dies, there is nothing anyone could do to him that would get justice for what he did. He is only one man. He has already lived well, unlike his victims, who are just extinguished. And the worst thing we can do to him is extinguish him. Not so bad. He will just cease to be. He won't even know he is gone.
The injustice against the children is permanent and total. Evil wins, every time.
Now I'm depressed.
I'm the PP you're responding to above. I'm all too familiar with injustice against children, having been the victim of a very disturbed man when I was a child. I'd like to believe he will pay for the damage he's caused, but he hasn't and he won't. Life is not fair or just. Like death, it's just a fact of life.
Anonymous
07/18/2011 22:42
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I'm not worried about me. Luckily, I am not a sociopath.
I am worried about the sociopath who kidnaps, rapes, tortures, and kills one of my kids and is not apprehended by law enforcement. Actually, even if he were apprehended, tried, convicted, and locked up forever, it wouldn't be justice.
But I guess we are all just cosmic dust, and life isn't fair. I'll comfort myself with that cold, hard truth.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Perhaps you should...Always Look on The Bright Side of Life?
Ok, no more sarcasm. An honest question:
Do you really believe what you are saying? You're not just dabbling in some intellectual pride for kicks? You really believe there is no such thing as justice?
Anonymous
07/18/2011 22:37
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:PP, the link discusses NDEs, not OBEs.
Sorry, I'm not well-versed enough in pseudo-science to understand the difference. could you fill me in?
Out of body experiences are similar to near death experiences. The difference is the person actually sees their own body separate from themselves. As an example, they are actually looking at themselves lying on a bed from a viewpoint across the room or up near the ceiling.
They can both contain the white light, lack of sensory input from the body (floating feeling), meeting or seeing loved ones or god, flashing memories, etc.
Given that it is a widely experienced phenomena and can be recreated in a lab, I don't think it fits into the pseudoscience category.
Anonymous
07/18/2011 22:33
Subject: Why don't you believe in God?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you non-believers all think when you die, that is it? What a hopeless life. If you lose a child, you believe it is just lights out and you'll never see him again?
In what sense? Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved. Why is the fact that we get one bite at the apple--a bite that is, when taken in context, so completely improbable--so sad? I can't imagine squandering your opportunity by focusing on "the next life". To me, there's nothing sadder than that.
Anyway, setting all that aside, I'm not sure "you should believe in God because it makes your life more hopeful" is the best argument. A world with a tangible Santa Clause in it is arguably more hopeful than one without. So what? It is what it is.
Better to have stolen, lied, cheated, oppressed and lived like a master of the universe than to have been a sucker. If you only get one bite at the apple, better make the most of it. I can't imagine squandering the opportunity to live well when there are no consequences to stepping on people to get what you want, if you are smart enough to not get caught. To me, there is nothing sadder than that.
Hmm. You must live a spiritually impoverished life, in that, without a god, "there are no consequences to stepping on people to get what you want". Frankly, most people aren't sociopathic douchebags, and prefer to be decent to one another. With or without a deity.
Go ahead and eat your neighbor's children, there's no god. What's that? Not interested? Feh, I thought you wanted to enjoy life.
God some of these theist arguments really do get inane.
I'm not worried about me. Luckily, I am not a sociopath.
I am worried about the sociopath who kidnaps, rapes, tortures, and kills one of my kids and is not apprehended by law enforcement. Actually, even if he were apprehended, tried, convicted, and locked up forever, it wouldn't be justice.
But I guess we are all just cosmic dust, and life isn't fair. I'll comfort myself with that cold, hard truth.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Perhaps you should...Always Look on The Bright Side of Life?