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Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Do you feel the same way about the MCAT and LSAT?

I don’t know much about those vocational school exams. I took the GRE. Yes, all measure how well you can take a standardized test. Classic example is the TOEFL, a standardized test to see how well foreign students understand English. Every year we got Chinese students who had perfect scores on the test but could not communicate in English.

That not how admissions officers see it. WITHIN racial/ethnic groups, higher standardized tests scores are highly correlated with increased probability of admission to any program. This is true on the SAT, ACT, MCAT, LSAT and GRE.

Clearly admissions officers believe that standardized test results reveal something important.

Democrat Woodward Wilson was proud that no black person gained admission to Princeton while he was in control. Up until today the racist democrats believed the same for Asians.

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I'm one of those Democrats who is happy to see this ruling. I'd rather see affirmative action on the basis of socioeconomic status rather than race. It would probably get you to the same conclusion rather than giving preferential treatment to UMC and UC POCs.

It doesn't get you there. California has already proven that. As a black woman, I am devasted. How do you eliminate affirmative action when merit is not real. You have many black and latino students graduated from substandard schools and white kids going to high school with golf courses. SAT scores are based on income, not intelligence.

We haven't even come to terms with race in this country.

Don't you get it? You're arguement is SOCIOECONOMIC, not racial. The majority opinion agrees with you.

Race affects socioeconomics.

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Anonymous wrote:Students needed bonus points to get in because of their race. This implies they are less capable as the ones who got in or at least scored less by their metrics, otherwise they would not have needed the bonus points.
The evidence shows it was not just a plus factor between two equal candidates, but a large difference.
It is reasonable to include that this group will have a harder time at the college that admitted the lower caliber group.
The alternative is to conclude that the college's evaluation process in admissions is flawed to begin with.

Google the graduation rate for Black Americans attending Harvard University.
Harvard is not scraping the bottom of the barrel to find qualified black applicants who won't succeed. Your ignorance is loud and disturbing.

Harvard is not. A lot of other colleges are after Harvard takes their pick.

Duh! Lower tiered schools get leftovers of all colors.

Anonymous wrote:Sotomayor:

“The Court’s carve out only highlights the arbitrariness of its decision and further proves that the Fourteenth Amendment does not categorically prohibit the use of race in college admissions“


Why the carve out?

It’s a baloney point by Sotomayor. KJB in oral argument suggested that a prohibition on the consideration of race in college admissions would prevent schools from reading admissions essays where the author/applicant chose to discuss their race. The carve out was in direct response to oral argument because you’d bring free speech issues into play if you followed KJB where she suggested the majority opinion should go in prohibiting consideration of race.

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Do you feel the same way about the MCAT and LSAT?

I don’t know much about those vocational school exams. I took the GRE. Yes, all measure how well you can take a standardized test. Classic example is the TOEFL, a standardized test to see how well foreign students understand English. Every year we got Chinese students who had perfect scores on the test but could not communicate in English.

The TOEFL isn't measuring "academic" English. It does give an indication of conversational English.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Do you feel the same way about the MCAT and LSAT?

I don’t know much about those vocational school exams. I took the GRE. Yes, all measure how well you can take a standardized test. Classic example is the TOEFL, a standardized test to see how well foreign students understand English. Every year we got Chinese students who had perfect scores on the test but could not communicate in English.

Vocational test? That's an understatement for getting into law school and medical school.

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Anonymous wrote:There should have been a time limit to affirmative action. Another one of Johnson’s mistakes

If you want to play that game, then it should have been equal to the number of years the humans who were enslaved were subject to their fate going through the signing of the Civil Rights Act, so give it another 300 years and then call it even.

Sure bud, but try convincing the majority of us to do that. You can't and we won't. History is full of terrible things done to lots of people. But you're not going to convince those of us who are here today that we should make great sacrifices to correct those historical wrongs - wrongs that many of our ancestors didn't perpetuate. I mean, while you're at it, why not just give Manhattan (and perhaps most of the Eastern seaboard) back to the Native Americans?

Sotomayor:

“The Court’s carve out only highlights the arbitrariness of its decision and further proves that the Fourteenth Amendment does not categorically prohibit the use of race in college admissions“


Why the carve out?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Uh, not quite. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/

"An established finding bears repeating: the SAT predicts college achievement, and a combination of SAT scores and high school grades offer the best prediction of student success. In the most recent validity sample of nearly a quarter million students, SAT scores and high school GPA combined offered the best predictor of first year GPA for college students. Including SAT scores in regression analyses yielded a roughly 15% increase in predictive power above using high school grades alone."

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think top schools are concerned about their students success. It’s a given they will succeed just by merit of being selected and all the academic support the schools offer.

Yes, but that's not what the PP assumed the SAT measures and I (the PP) wanted to point out some inconvenient truths.

"3.1. The SAT Mostly Measures Ability, Not Privilege
SAT scores correlate moderately with socioeconomic status [15], as do other standardized measures of intelligence. Contrary to some opinions, the predictive power of the SAT holds even when researchers control for socioeconomic status, and this pattern is similar across gender and racial/ethnic subgroups [15,16]. Another popular misconception is that one can “buy” a better SAT score through costly test prep. Yet research has consistently demonstrated that it is remarkably difficult to increase an individual’s SAT score, and the commercial test prep industry capitalizes on, at best, modest changes [13,17]. Short of outright cheating on the test, an expensive and complex undertaking that may carry unpleasant legal consequences, high SAT scores are generally difficult to acquire by any means other than high ability."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Do you feel the same way about the MCAT and LSAT?

DP, those are tests with a different design, so no.

Anonymous wrote:There should have been a time limit to affirmative action. Another one of Johnson’s mistakes

If you want to play that game, then it should have been equal to the number of years the humans who were enslaved were subject to their fate going through the signing of the Civil Rights Act, so give it another 300 years and then call it even.

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Anonymous wrote:These universities will just adjust there admissions criteria to eliminate the things that preference rich white, Asian, Latino applicants. They already eliminated standardized tests. They want a diverse class and they will figure out a way to get it.

Translation: they will water down criteria and let in a whole bunch of unqualified people who’ll fail out OR they’ll have to make curricula easier, bringing the education standards down for everyone. What a brilliant plan. We can all be equal when we are all equally mediocre to crappy.

Right because a 4.0 or 3.9 GPA Black student is really going to fail at Harvard and needs the entire university to dumb down curriculum to be able to learn. You sound like white folks in the 50s that had a fit the moment one Black family moved into the neighborhood. Forget that the Black family is as educated and wealthy, if not more than you. SMH

Then they don't need affirmative action

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen if/when whites at the Ivy Leagues start feeling that they are being edged out by Asians in regard to admissions.

If the admission system is race-blind and based on demonstrated academic achievement, I will “start feeling” (as you put it) the system is finally fair.

If my white child is not admitted, I will assume other students simply demonstrated superior academic performance. And that would be fair. Fine with it.

The admission system is most certainly not going to be based on academic merit. Never had been and never will be.

Admission decisions should not be based solely on academic merit. I have no doubt that HYP receives enough applicants who score 100% on SAT to fill the entire first class. But academic merit is not the only requirement for a successful life. In the sports arena, there are dozens, if not more, of examples with hugely natural talent who never lived up to their potential.

SAT measures how well you take a standardized test. Nothing more.

Do you feel the same way about the MCAT and LSAT?

I don’t know much about those vocational school exams. I took the GRE. Yes, all measure how well you can take a standardized test. Classic example is the TOEFL, a standardized test to see how well foreign students understand English. Every year we got Chinese students who had perfect scores on the test but could not communicate in English.

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Anonymous wrote:Imagine if schools like Harvard rejected black male candidates because admissions staff gave them negative personality scores for things like ‘probably prone to violence’ and ‘most likely to act unruly and without discipline in the classroom’. How outrageous would that be? Of course it’d be despicable to reject a black man for negative personality scores based on racial stereotypes like that. So why should we tolerate that crap but for Asians? And you wonder why Asians are upset when Affirmative Action setup a system where they have to be judged in their personality, which ended up being based on racial stereotypes of their perceived behavior. I can’t believe we even need to discuss this. Affirmative Action should have died a long time ago based on the monstrosity it morphed into. Maybe at first it had merit, but it just ended up becoming a race based system using stereotypes to judge people.

Asians low personality score was not based on any racial stereotype of their perceived behavior, except that there is a stereotype that they are smarter and will score higher, and Harvard and other schools do not want too many of them so they needed to lower their scores somehow.

Do you eat a diet of bullsh!t for breakfast everyday? Holy Toledo.


Asians’ low personality score was based on the perception that they’d study too much, be too quiet in class, would struggle to contribute to group and team work because of their docile natures, and probably couldn’t perform in leadership roles. That’s exactly what they received negative scores for *consistently*.


It is absolutely a racist stereotype that Asians are ‘typically’ the quiet kid in the back acing all of the math tests and never getting into trouble. They are great tonhsbe in the classroom…..bu not in any leadership positions because they’re ‘probably’ too quiet, etc.


What a disgusting racist trope. It’s just shocking an institution like Harvard promulgated this and has all sorts of racist supporters like this thread shows. This is EXACTLY why Asians continued to be denied positions of power in both the corporate world and government even though they do everything right snd often times far better than everyone else. Enough is enough. I’m glad Asians finally got pissed and are standing up for themselves.