Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:57
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What was with Shiv falling on the stairs? Miscarriage? Or a complication that requires Tom to be in on it?
I hated they revealed she was pregnant in the same episode she tripped down two stairs. No, I'm pretty sure you can't miscarry a second trimester baby by tripping down two steps without any impact to the abdomen. I think the true symbolism of her stumble, is that Shiv was bitter that she wasn't named CEO because she's competing for a space in the Boy's Club, and she was trying to assert her dominance, and then immediately tripped and appeared weak in front of those men who rushed to her rescue.
I think it's both. I think the trip was designed to show how vulnerable Shiv is (or feels) in this moment. It's supposed to make you think about her pregnancy immediately (I remember when I was pregnant, people would freak out if I stumbled at all -- there is this heightened paranoia even if a trip or fall is not a big deal and unlikely to cause an issue), but the timing is also reflective of her feeling like she's being shut out at Waystar, and it came in a scene where she was snapping at people. She feels out of control, and the pregnancy is very much part of that. It's not a coincidence.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:52
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why did Shiv need an amino? I don’t think she miscarried but that fall feels out of place otherwise.
To gauge whether or not she should get an abortion. She may have conflicting views on it, and if the child had birth defects, may have been an easy decision for her.
I think they wrote in the amnio because Hollywood constantly gets pregnancy and L&D wrong. See: every birth scene in a TV show or movie. Bringing up the amnio was a recognizable way for the audience (many who probably wouldn't recognize basic pregnancy terms) to pick up that she's pregnant. She's also very pregnant, the next sonogram is at 20 weeks, so she's at least 15 weeks along. The question is: who was she sleeping with 15 weeks ago?
I am going to give this show more credit than that for now and assume they know what an amnio is and also when it would normally be done and for what reasons. Shiv is early to mid-30s, which is young for an amnio if you don't have some kind of genetic history or concern. BUT Shiv is super rich and rich people play by very different rules with medical procedures. I could absolutely see her getting an amnio even if she's only 32 or 33, just to be cautious. And perhaps due to ambivalence about the baby, as a PP pointed out -- a problem on the amnio gives her an excuse to terminate (which, again, someone in Shiv's position could do even though she's further along because she's rich -- she could have a late term abortion if she wanted, she can do whatever she wants).
They also got the timing exactly right. You do an amnio between 15 and 20 weeks, and it sounds like her 20 week scan is coming up. I'm guessing Shiv Roy doesn't have to wait around for amnio results, so she probably had the procedure done in the last few days. Shiv's been late to things and looked a bit disheveled when she arrived over the last few episodes -- totally believable that she's been at the doctor's office (or puking her guts out).
I think it's probably Tom's baby because I don't get the impression Shiv has actually been sleeping with other people lately. She was enraged to hear that Tom was dating and possibly/probably sleeping with other women, which I am guessing is because she knew she was pregnant with Tom's baby and wanted to keep all her options as wide open as possible while she decided what to do. She will want to maintain control over the situation. But her dad's death is totally throwing a wrench in that. And now she's being pushed aside by her brothers at the company... she's trying to figure out how to play this to her advantage but the rules for business are all written for men, not women who are 20 weeks pregnant and separated from their husbands. The other women on the show married into money and used marriage/kids to secure their futures. Shiv already has money, she wants something else, and it's something that marriage/kids may be an obstacle to.
I agree with all of this except I do think the paternity of this baby comes into question at some point and Shiv being able to say with 100% certainty that it's Tom's is something she can use to her advantage against Tom.
Your last paragraph is something I have been thinking about since last season when the idea of Shiv having a baby came up. Pregnancy and motherhood absolutely diminishes women's image as competent, dedicated, and for sure ruthless in business. There was one interaction where either her dad or Tom mentioned her having a baby and there was a real undertone that a pregnancy and baby would undermine Shiv's credibility. So I think Shiv trying to make something that should make her vulnerable into a strength is absolutely part of the storyline. Her tripping and falling was symbolic of that.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:44
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh snap! PPs bet wrong- both Kerri and Marcia back!
That was brutal, not that I minded. But for a twist of fate, the $63 million apartment could have been Kerri's in a matter of months. I would also Marcia would have an ironclad prenup in place, will be interesting to see how that pans out.
They showed her negotiating her post-nup after Logan's affair with the Holly Hunter character. We know it was very generous to Marcia.
Do you think she was honest when she said that her and Logan talked every day?
Um, no. With Kerri as his closest confidante, what did he need Marcia for?
Disagree. What did Logan ever need Marcia for? And yet here's Marcia playing grieving widow, earning $63 million at her husband's wake, cruelly banishing his latest mistress by ordering around the exact same guys that her husband was ordering around a few days ago. Marcia is not to be underestimated. Logan could have paid her off, cut her out, and gotten rid of her long ago. And yet...
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:38
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why did Shiv need an amino? I don’t think she miscarried but that fall feels out of place otherwise.
To gauge whether or not she should get an abortion. She may have conflicting views on it, and if the child had birth defects, may have been an easy decision for her.
I think they wrote in the amnio because Hollywood constantly gets pregnancy and L&D wrong. See: every birth scene in a TV show or movie. Bringing up the amnio was a recognizable way for the audience (many who probably wouldn't recognize basic pregnancy terms) to pick up that she's pregnant. She's also very pregnant, the next sonogram is at 20 weeks, so she's at least 15 weeks along. The question is: who was she sleeping with 15 weeks ago?
Amnio is also a certain way to establish paternity, or lack thereof.
There is a blood test too, but you need a blood sample of both suspected parents. I believe this was left intentionally vague.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:35
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Roman has always had more sensitivity than the other two. This shows it. He can be sarcastic and biting, but at his core he is more fragile and uncomfortable with some of the things required of him---like having to fire Geri, etc. Shiv would have zero problem with any of it. She is missing the sensitivity chip.
Some of the past talk with siblings about locking Roman in the dog crate and how he was weaker than the others, speak to it. Even with Shiv being older.
Sure....remember the first episode when they were playing baseball? He offered that poor child $1,000,000 to get a home run. The kid didn't get a home run and Roman gave him nothing. Someone ( I think Tom) gave the kid an expensive watch though.
The watch was a gift from Tom to Logan. I think Logan gave the kid the watch, because he didn't want it... the watch was definitely indirectly from Tom, but I can't remember who gave it to the kid.
I feel like it was Karl or Collin giving it to the kid as they asked the family to sign NDAs, Logan didn’t do it out of generosity. I do give the writers some slack here, pilot ep isn’t the most indicative of their characters. Shiv was so frumpy in her sweater and that was probably Roman’s most callous moment.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:23
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Roman has always had more sensitivity than the other two. This shows it. He can be sarcastic and biting, but at his core he is more fragile and uncomfortable with some of the things required of him---like having to fire Geri, etc. Shiv would have zero problem with any of it. She is missing the sensitivity chip.
Some of the past talk with siblings about locking Roman in the dog crate and how he was weaker than the others, speak to it. Even with Shiv being older.
Sure....remember the first episode when they were playing baseball? He offered that poor child $1,000,000 to get a home run. The kid didn't get a home run and Roman gave him nothing. Someone ( I think Tom) gave the kid an expensive watch though.
The watch was a gift from Tom to Logan. I think Logan gave the kid the watch, because he didn't want it... the watch was definitely indirectly from Tom, but I can't remember who gave it to the kid.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:16
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Roman has always had more sensitivity than the other two. This shows it. He can be sarcastic and biting, but at his core he is more fragile and uncomfortable with some of the things required of him---like having to fire Geri, etc. Shiv would have zero problem with any of it. She is missing the sensitivity chip.
Some of the past talk with siblings about locking Roman in the dog crate and how he was weaker than the others, speak to it. Even with Shiv being older.
Shiv is not older. Shiv is the youngest. Roman is the middle child. This actually tracks very well with heir personalities -- Kendall is the confident oldest (often over-confident because he is used to dominating siblings who are younger and not on his level), Shiv is the entitled baby, Roman is the insecure/ignored middle child.
In a dysfunctional family, the oldest often takes on a parental role (parentification), but since they have poor role models, what this actually means is that they copy their parents' abusive behavior toward younger kids. But the very youngest will often get special protection for being the youngest (something probably exacerbated in a family with three older boys where the youngest is a girl, and the parents subscribe to some old-school ideas about gender). So the middle kid takes the brunt of abuse not only from parents but from older siblings.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 11:16
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Roman has always had more sensitivity than the other two. This shows it. He can be sarcastic and biting, but at his core he is more fragile and uncomfortable with some of the things required of him---like having to fire Geri, etc. Shiv would have zero problem with any of it. She is missing the sensitivity chip.
Some of the past talk with siblings about locking Roman in the dog crate and how he was weaker than the others, speak to it. Even with Shiv being older.
Sure....remember the first episode when they were playing baseball? He offered that poor child $1,000,000 to get a home run. The kid didn't get a home run and Roman gave him nothing. Someone ( I think Tom) gave the kid an expensive watch though.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:41
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Roman has always had more sensitivity than the other two. This shows it. He can be sarcastic and biting, but at his core he is more fragile and uncomfortable with some of the things required of him---like having to fire Geri, etc. Shiv would have zero problem with any of it. She is missing the sensitivity chip.
Some of the past talk with siblings about locking Roman in the dog crate and how he was weaker than the others, speak to it. Even with Shiv being older.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:35
Subject: Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.
Because she knows that Logan was grooming Roman to take over the company at the time of his death.
I think you read this question the wrong way round.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:32
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.
Genetic amniocentesis is usually done between weeks 14 and 20 of pregnancy. Amniocentesis done before week 14 of pregnancy might lead to more complications.
Reasons to consider genetic amniocentesis include:
Having positive results from a prenatal screening test. If the results of a screening test — such as the first-trimester screen or prenatal cell-free DNA screening — show high risk or are worrisome, amniocentesis might confirm or rule out a diagnosis.
Having an earlier pregnancy affected by a genetic condition. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to look for that condition.
Being 35 or older. Babies born to people 35 and older have a higher risk of chromosomal conditions, such as Down syndrome. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to rule out these conditions if prenatal cell-free DNA screening is positive.
Having a family history of a genetic condition, or if the parents are carriers of a genetic condition. Besides identifying Down syndrome, amniocentesis can be used to diagnose other genetic conditions, such as cystic fibrosis.
Having unusual ultrasound findings. A health care provider might recommend amniocentesis to diagnose or rule out genetic conditions associated with unusual ultrasound findings.
You guys are reading way too much into this. They talked about an amnio to 1) tell us shiv was pregnant, and 2) to tell us how far along she was (since it’s done later on, and they also snuck in the 20 week scan comment). That’s it. It’s not a detailed medical drama focusing on insurance claims and ICD10 codes.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:12
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.
I think it makes sense for Shiv to put off telling Tom for as long as possible (assuming he's the father, and that she didn't decide to have a baby on her own after the season 3 finale, they still haven't clearly set up a timeline) and even to look for excuses to keep putting it off. Even if the possibility of a complication were nil, she'd probably pay for the procedure, simply because there was a chance. It's like Kendall, who calls for the "World's best airplane medicine doctor" or has the best "grief counselor." They hire out the best and leave no stone unturned, because everything in their life is a business decision that they need total control over.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:07
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.
I agree with you, the amnio timing and having it done makes perfect sense. It was even explained by the doctor on the call, who said something about concerns that had come up on the earlier tests to make the amnio necessary.
I do also think, though, that someone like Shiv would inevitably get pretty much all the tests even if not over 35 because rich people tend to over-test medically -- it's very common for people who don't have to worry about the cost of medical care to get unnecessary tests because it's assumed this is equal to better care. They also tend to be extremely risk averse health wise, so a test that would reveal a genetic abnormality would be of high interest even if there was no indication that it was necessary.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 10:02
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.
Genetic amniocentesis is usually done between weeks 14 and 20 of pregnancy. Amniocentesis done before week 14 of pregnancy might lead to more complications.
Reasons to consider genetic amniocentesis include:
Having positive results from a prenatal screening test. If the results of a screening test — such as the first-trimester screen or prenatal cell-free DNA screening — show high risk or are worrisome, amniocentesis might confirm or rule out a diagnosis.
Having an earlier pregnancy affected by a genetic condition. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to look for that condition.
Being 35 or older. Babies born to people 35 and older have a higher risk of chromosomal conditions, such as Down syndrome. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to rule out these conditions if prenatal cell-free DNA screening is positive.
Having a family history of a genetic condition, or if the parents are carriers of a genetic condition. Besides identifying Down syndrome, amniocentesis can be used to diagnose other genetic conditions, such as cystic fibrosis.
Having unusual ultrasound findings. A health care provider might recommend amniocentesis to diagnose or rule out genetic conditions associated with unusual ultrasound findings.
Anonymous
04/17/2023 09:59
Subject: Re:Succession - Season 4
I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.