Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also think this is throwback and is related to outdated thinking that women must be graceful, not powerful.

Do away with thee dance moves. Let women be strong powerful gymnasts.

+1
I remember seeing a routine with a fake little tantrum on the mat. It was so stupid.
Like a pP said, let them do a little yoga or some calming stretches. We get that they need the breather; the breather is going to be all muscle memory stuff, and watching them do a stretch will still be pretty darn fascinating to the audience who will probably pull a hamstring trying to get up off the couch.

What’s the point of having a routine at all if this is what people want to see? Just have them all do the exact same skills and see who does it better.

I won’t watch it because I prefer the old school style of gymnastics, but apparently the type of stuff that appeals to girlie girls like me is stupid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

That is a separate issue from their gymnastics style.

Don't bother, PP. There is a contingent on here that associates balletic grace and polish only with the horrible training situation imposed on gymnasts of the 70s and 80s. Apparently, no one can voluntarily incorporate ballet training into an athletic regimen now.

The unsupportable way gymnasts and other athletes were treated in the past is a totally separate issue from what is emphasized in gymnastics competition today. An earlier PP explained the trajectory of the sport and the move away from innovation well. It is the reason Biles is so special. She continues to innovate. But she also *chooses* not to focus on polish or grace. If she cared about it more, I'm sure she could do so. But she emphasizes speed and power.

Today’s gymnasts do in fact incorporate grace and polish, it just looks different on a healthy, muscular 22 year old compared to a waif-like 80lb 15 year old.

Any size can be graceful. However, the scoring system favors difficult skills so athletes in gymnastics, figure skating and synchro swimming are increasingly skipping grace and going for the high point tricks. Skating is now also triple-triple-jazz hands-quad-triple-jazz hands. Synchro has become throws in the air interspersed with violent leg splashing and no elegance.

Sometimes you just want to see a pretty routine, but that isn't going to be at the Olympics where the aim is to maximize points.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

That is a separate issue from their gymnastics style.

Don't bother, PP. There is a contingent on here that associates balletic grace and polish only with the horrible training situation imposed on gymnasts of the 70s and 80s. Apparently, no one can voluntarily incorporate ballet training into an athletic regimen now.

The unsupportable way gymnasts and other athletes were treated in the past is a totally separate issue from what is emphasized in gymnastics competition today. An earlier PP explained the trajectory of the sport and the move away from innovation well. It is the reason Biles is so special. She continues to innovate. But she also *chooses* not to focus on polish or grace. If she cared about it more, I'm sure she could do so. But she emphasizes speed and power.

Today’s gymnasts do in fact incorporate grace and polish, it just looks different on a healthy, muscular 22 year old compared to a waif-like 80lb 15 year old.

Disagree. They look like robots

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

That is a separate issue from their gymnastics style.

Don't bother, PP. There is a contingent on here that associates balletic grace and polish only with the horrible training situation imposed on gymnasts of the 70s and 80s. Apparently, no one can voluntarily incorporate ballet training into an athletic regimen now.

The unsupportable way gymnasts and other athletes were treated in the past is a totally separate issue from what is emphasized in gymnastics competition today. An earlier PP explained the trajectory of the sport and the move away from innovation well. It is the reason Biles is so special. She continues to innovate. But she also *chooses* not to focus on polish or grace. If she cared about it more, I'm sure she could do so. But she emphasizes speed and power.

Today’s gymnasts do in fact incorporate grace and polish, it just looks different on a healthy, muscular 22 year old compared to a waif-like 80lb 15 year old.

Anonymous wrote:I also think this is throwback and is related to outdated thinking that women must be graceful, not powerful.

Do away with thee dance moves. Let women be strong powerful gymnasts.

+1
I remember seeing a routine with a fake little tantrum on the mat. It was so stupid.
Like a pP said, let them do a little yoga or some calming stretches. We get that they need the breather; the breather is going to be all muscle memory stuff, and watching them do a stretch will still be pretty darn fascinating to the audience who will probably pull a hamstring trying to get up off the couch.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

Ditto the recent court case here?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

That is a separate issue from their gymnastics style.

Don't bother, PP. There is a contingent on here that associates balletic grace and polish only with the horrible training situation imposed on gymnasts of the 70s and 80s. Apparently, no one can voluntarily incorporate ballet training into an athletic regimen now.

The unsupportable way gymnasts and other athletes were treated in the past is a totally separate issue from what is emphasized in gymnastics competition today. An earlier PP explained the trajectory of the sport and the move away from innovation well. It is the reason Biles is so special. She continues to innovate. But she also *chooses* not to focus on polish or grace. If she cared about it more, I'm sure she could do so. But she emphasizes speed and power.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

That is a separate issue from their gymnastics style.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Go read the articles and watch the interviews of the hell those girls had to endure. There’s nothing to miss about that dynasty.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha, my DH and I were just talking about this.

I understand PP's point about the athletes needing time to take a breath or recover from the intense tumbling passes or other skills. But I'm a former ballet dancer and simply wish these little moves didn't look as dumb. It's the stiff, splayed jazz hands and often hyper extended joints that bug me. The Russians are often more ballet trained that gymnasts from other countries and it often shows in their dance moves, where they understand how to position their arms in particular to create unbroken lines that look more graceful. I really enjoy gymnastics and find it all amazing, but I've never gotten over how bad this looks to a dancer's eye. I am certain these athletes would be capable of better lines, but it is not emphasized in training and this is just what the aesthetics of gymnastics are which is unfortunate.

This is why uneven bars and vault are my favorite women events. No weird dance moves. And as a result they look much more graceful to me.

I was actually just going to mention a couple of Russian gymnasts who were known to have great dance moves - and you're right about their ballet training.

I miss the Russian gymnasts and the rest of the Eastern European gymnasts.

Anonymous wrote:Watch some of the Netherlands gymnasts. Or Brooklyn Moors from Canada.

The problem is that most American gymnasts don't get sufficient dance training. Gymnasts like mykayla skinner and jade Carey have probably never taken a dance class in their lives.

They aren’t asking them to dance and some of them do take ballet. Ballet is the most physically and mentally toughest physical activity. Some gymnastic studios have a simple ballet class weekly.

What’s weird about their “dance” moves is their lack of rhythm. It’s hard to believe that none of them can pull that off.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, op. Watching with my teen dd and she just said “I bet the male gymnasts don’t have to jazz hands.”

Congratulations to you and your daughter for this excellent example of internalized misogyny!

Yes, let’s always make sure to compare women to men. In order for whatever it is women are doing to not be “stupid” it must be what the men are doing!

God forbid women’s gymnastics includes any display of athleticism that is (relatively) unique to women. (e.g. grace)

If I want to just watch straight up feats of strength and displays of raw power, I’ll just watch the men. They could easily wipe the floor with any of the female gymnasts any day in that regard.

The point of this thread is that there really isn't much grace anymore. Female gymnasts aren't required to do fluffy stuff on bars and vault.

Okay. Those are different events, are they not? Female gymnasts also aren’t required to swing around the beam or walk from one end of the high bar to the other.

I would personally like to see both. People used to do weird stuff in gymnastics just to distinguish themselves. You could do a tousek into a back hip circle on the beam. Worleys. Phillips handstands. The Li spin was like a breakdancing spin on the beam. But the new scoring system doesn't reward skills like this which run a high risk of a big deduction from a fall but are generally not rated as hard enough to maximize your difficulty rating. A lot of them are basically impossible to link with other elements and that's one of the key ways that gymnasts today build routines with high difficulty scores -- link elements together in quick succession.

Uneven bars doesn't lend itself to as many weird skills because you have to be able to swing out of tricks -- you cannot walk across the bar. But there have been some wild tricks before. There used to be this mount where you did a round-off arabian over the low bar to grab the high bar. Insane. But actually not that elegant and so much can go wrong.

I am digressing but if you are goign to talk about the evolution of gymnastics one of the thngs that has happened is that everyone performs the same skills now and there is a lot less experimentation because there is very little motivation for high level gymnasts do push the envelope. Sure you might get a skill named after you but you are also likely to land flat on your face and out of contention.

That's part of what makes Simone Biles special. In an era where everyone does the same skills she has innovated and found ways to push the limits but do so consistently and successfully at top level meets. That is very very hard to do in a system that has a pretty strict recipe for success.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, op. Watching with my teen dd and she just said “I bet the male gymnasts don’t have to jazz hands.”

Congratulations to you and your daughter for this excellent example of internalized misogyny!

Yes, let’s always make sure to compare women to men. In order for whatever it is women are doing to not be “stupid” it must be what the men are doing!

God forbid women’s gymnastics includes any display of athleticism that is (relatively) unique to women. (e.g. grace)

If I want to just watch straight up feats of strength and displays of raw power, I’ll just watch the men. They could easily wipe the floor with any of the female gymnasts any day in that regard.

The point of this thread is that there really isn't much grace anymore. Female gymnasts aren't required to do fluffy stuff on bars and vault.

Okay. Those are different events, are they not? Female gymnasts also aren’t required to swing around the beam or walk from one end of the high bar to the other.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, op. Watching with my teen dd and she just said “I bet the male gymnasts don’t have to jazz hands.”

Congratulations to you and your daughter for this excellent example of internalized misogyny!

Yes, let’s always make sure to compare women to men. In order for whatever it is women are doing to not be “stupid” it must be what the men are doing!

God forbid women’s gymnastics includes any display of athleticism that is (relatively) unique to women. (e.g. grace)

If I want to just watch straight up feats of strength and displays of raw power, I’ll just watch the men. They could easily wipe the floor with any of the female gymnasts any day in that regard.

The point of this thread is that there really isn't much grace anymore. Female gymnasts aren't required to do fluffy stuff on bars and vault.

Anonymous wrote:I agree, op. Watching with my teen dd and she just said “I bet the male gymnasts don’t have to jazz hands.”

Congratulations to you and your daughter for this excellent example of internalized misogyny!

Yes, let’s always make sure to compare women to men. In order for whatever it is women are doing to not be “stupid” it must be what the men are doing!

God forbid women’s gymnastics includes any display of athleticism that is (relatively) unique to women. (e.g. grace)

If I want to just watch straight up feats of strength and displays of raw power, I’ll just watch the men. They could easily wipe the floor with any of the female gymnasts any day in that regard.