Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand the biodiversity and habitat arguments. I really do.

I also don't want a yard full of bees, and I don't care for the look of native gardens. I want a place for my kids to play and I like to grow vegetables. I am in a constant battle against my neighbors' ivy and creeper, which a yard full of native plants would just make it harder to keep in check.

So I get it ... but I don't do it.

Then you don't actually understand the arguments. A loss of bees and other pollinators would be catastrophic for everyone. Where do you think your food comes from? LOTS of food crops rely on pollinators, and the entire ecosystem relies on the food chain of insects and birds. You don't do it because it's not pretty and you don't like bees. You don't get it at all.

Do you only plant "native" vegetables too?

That’s kind of a red herring in that when people decide to have a vegetable garden, they’re not usually displacing a lot of habitat, whereas the people who like their big, sterile monoculture lawns make the decision to have only plants like petunias and begonias similar. Things that offer absolutely zero nutrition or habitat to native birds, bees and other insects. And what’s more they argue about this, that it doesn’t matter that there’s no habitat, that it doesn’t matter that we’ve lost 70% of our birds, that none of this matters and no actions anyone takes will have an effect.

Also, in my experience, your average vegetable gardener is usually happy to plant native flowers in their yard since they understand that we’re part of a big web. Or at least not to ignorantly argue that there’s no value to it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say, I went out at lunch -- my front yard is all flowers, mostly natives/pollinator-friendly species -- and there were hardly any bees or butterflies out there compared to previous years. So far we have only seen those little white butterflies (which I hope aren't cabbage butterflies, since I have planted eggplant) -- no monarchs, no black, yellow, or blue swallowtails, and none of the little orange, yellow, or brown types we usually see. We currently have coneflowers, liatris, milkweed, sunflowers, coreopsis, monarda/wild bergamot, agastache/hyssop, and lavender in bloom, and usually they are covered with flying things. Last year we could literally have a hundred bees of at least a half dozen different species on the hyssop alone, today I could count them on one hand and zero bumblebees or honeybees. It's worrisome.

It’s legitimately frightening. I don’t have much native (yet), but the absence of birdsong is noticeable. I have some plants that are basically weeds (I haven’t gotten close, but I think one is aster and I know one is a native silene) that I would have pulled in years past. They’re staying now.

They must be all in my yard. We've noticed the orange swallowtails, the little flittering brown/orange onces, moths, bees of many species, hummingbirds. Monarchs we have seen later in the season. My milkweed is just now blooming. We've had loads of bird nests this year: robins, blue birds, wrens, chickadees, finches. We've even idenfied a new bird species we have never seen before. So be patient. It could take a couple of years. Longer if your neighbors use lots of pest/herbicides. Some bees -mason bees for example- will not nest in areas with that stuff.

Good luck and thanks for doing what you're doing.

Yes, my yard is covered as well (though no monarchs despite all the milkweed ). And our yard is a far cry from all-native--plenty of nandina, hydrangea, roses--much of which were well established before we bought here (mea culpa). But more because of small kids & pets, I have never sprayed (now 8+ years), and one of my immediate neighbors is even more militant. We are bordered behind by an abandoned (wooded) lot, and even the other neighbor who used to get on me about our weedy clover-covered lawn has cut it back a lot. So I wonder if more than anything, the lack of pesticides + a lot of benign neglect is the real boon for pollinators.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They’re not important.

Plant what YOU like.

"Let the bees eat cake!"

Bees aren’t native, either dummy. They pollinate non-native fruit, nut and vegetable crops.

We can do this all day….

We can; it’s not going to make your uninformed arguments any more persuasive. No, honeybees aren’t native, but there are 4,000 native bees in America. Haven’t noticed any in your yard, not many birds or butterflies? No, you haven’t; there’s nothing for them to eat, nowhere to live. That’s what we’re talking about. DP.

My yard is absolutely overrun with insects of all kinds, so clearly I’m doing something right by pretty much ignoring my weedy overgrown mess.

You’re welcome.

They type of insect matters, dummy. Just like insects are generalists/specialists, so are birds. Also, if those insects are non-native, they could be doing more harm than the small good of feeding birds (e.g., the spotted lanternfly).

NP- oh dear, how do I identify which insects are invasives and how do I get rid of them?

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say, I went out at lunch -- my front yard is all flowers, mostly natives/pollinator-friendly species -- and there were hardly any bees or butterflies out there compared to previous years. So far we have only seen those little white butterflies (which I hope aren't cabbage butterflies, since I have planted eggplant) -- no monarchs, no black, yellow, or blue swallowtails, and none of the little orange, yellow, or brown types we usually see. We currently have coneflowers, liatris, milkweed, sunflowers, coreopsis, monarda/wild bergamot, agastache/hyssop, and lavender in bloom, and usually they are covered with flying things. Last year we could literally have a hundred bees of at least a half dozen different species on the hyssop alone, today I could count them on one hand and zero bumblebees or honeybees. It's worrisome.

Yes! I was just about to post the same thing- my yard is not all native plants but I do have a fair number of sunny natives- zinnias, butterflyweed, sunflowers, coneflowers, etc. (lots of rubeckia too but not blooming yet) in addition to a vegetable garden and the pollinators just aren't there this year. Huge spicebush and no evidence of swallowtails. Also only seeing the little white butterflies. Pretty sure my immediate neighbors aren't using pesticides. We typically have a fair number of bumble bees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand the biodiversity and habitat arguments. I really do.

I also don't want a yard full of bees, and I don't care for the look of native gardens. I want a place for my kids to play and I like to grow vegetables. I am in a constant battle against my neighbors' ivy and creeper, which a yard full of native plants would just make it harder to keep in check.

So I get it ... but I don't do it.

Then you don't actually understand the arguments. A loss of bees and other pollinators would be catastrophic for everyone. Where do you think your food comes from? LOTS of food crops rely on pollinators, and the entire ecosystem relies on the food chain of insects and birds. You don't do it because it's not pretty and you don't like bees. You don't get it at all.

Do you only plant "native" vegetables too?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They’re not important.

Plant what YOU like.

"Let the bees eat cake!"

Bees aren’t native, either dummy. They pollinate non-native fruit, nut and vegetable crops.

We can do this all day….

We can; it’s not going to make your uninformed arguments any more persuasive. No, honeybees aren’t native, but there are 4,000 native bees in America. Haven’t noticed any in your yard, not many birds or butterflies? No, you haven’t; there’s nothing for them to eat, nowhere to live. That’s what we’re talking about. DP.

My yard is absolutely overrun with insects of all kinds, so clearly I’m doing something right by pretty much ignoring my weedy overgrown mess.

You’re welcome.

They type of insect matters, dummy. Just like insects are generalists/specialists, so are birds. Also, if those insects are non-native, they could be doing more harm than the small good of feeding birds (e.g., the spotted lanternfly).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After the first year you will likely rarely if ever have to water. That’s what I love about them. And all the butterflies and bees.

which ones are particularly drought resistant? so far I haven't watered liatris spicata once this summer, but my coneflowers look a bit sad without watering.

I haven't watered my cones in days and they are doing just fine. We've only had a short sprinkle, if you can even call in that, since last week.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not “ saving the planet” with your tiny yard.

Wrong. People like OP are leading the way and WILL affect positive change for the environment, especially when we reach a critical mass. If we’re all rowing in the same direction, we’ll go a lot faster. And one political party is effectively blocking all big movement on solving this at the national level, so we’re going to have to do what we can in our yards.

I was with you until you brought politics into it. Most people, regardless of political party or how much lip service they pay to caring about the environment, demonstrate day after day through their actions that they simply DO NOT CARE.

Hm. Disagree. And in this case, the political aspect is crucial because we are not making huge progress due to the stubbornness of one group of people. Whether or not you like that truth being stated, you agree with my larger point: we can’t make big policy changes right now, so this is in all of our laps.

No snark, honest, but I am actually extremely curious what policy changes one group of politicians has proposed that would help with this issue, and what the other group has done to stymie it?

I was rather hoping this thread would not turn political (NP Here) as it was quite informative. But, I don't think it is unreasonable to acknowledge that one political party generally opposes any sort of green platform, drastically cut back the environmental agencies when in power (not the case in, say, the 70s), etc. This is the same party that demonizes science, generally, when it conflicts with unfettered capitalism, or screams "socialism" for any money spent on programs that benefit the collective good. I know you know this.

In terms of specific policy changes, the continued propping up of big agriculture, with subsidies and payments that incentivizes the monocrop and increased use of pest/herbicides, and drains resevoirs. That's the biggest one, imo. (To be clear, both parties allow this to happen but it is WAY more prevalent in one vs. another party). Agriculture could almost single handedly help with restoring dying off species, climate change, carbon capture, migration routes restored for wildlife and a host of other issues. One of the entire reasons this debate is even needing to be had is b/c of the ag industry in this country.

Anonymous wrote:After the first year you will likely rarely if ever have to water. That’s what I love about them. And all the butterflies and bees.

which ones are particularly drought resistant? so far I haven't watered liatris spicata once this summer, but my coneflowers look a bit sad without watering.

Anonymous wrote:I understand the biodiversity and habitat arguments. I really do.

I also don't want a yard full of bees, and I don't care for the look of native gardens. I want a place for my kids to play and I like to grow vegetables. I am in a constant battle against my neighbors' ivy and creeper, which a yard full of native plants would just make it harder to keep in check.

So I get it ... but I don't do it.

Your premises are all incorrect. Native gardens are not a specific look. Vegetables support local wildlife for super obvious reasons. Native plants often have tight root systems that can fight off invasive ivy just fine. If you want a more manicured landscape you can have it but with native plants included. For example I see purple coneflower and black eyed susans in commercial, manicured landscapes all the time. These are both native plants that are just being used because they are easy and have a long bloom time. The landscaper could just as easily placed some other daisy type flower that doesn't attract pollinators.

OP, many hydrangeas ARE native to this area! Annabelles for example. So there are beautiful native options.

Personally, I have a mix of some native plants and mom-native.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They’re not important.

Plant what YOU like.

"Let the bees eat cake!"

Bees aren’t native, either dummy. They pollinate non-native fruit, nut and vegetable crops.

We can do this all day….

We can; it’s not going to make your uninformed arguments any more persuasive. No, honeybees aren’t native, but there are 4,000 native bees in America. Haven’t noticed any in your yard, not many birds or butterflies? No, you haven’t; there’s nothing for them to eat, nowhere to live. That’s what we’re talking about. DP.

My yard is absolutely overrun with insects of all kinds, so clearly I’m doing something right by pretty much ignoring my weedy overgrown mess.

You’re welcome.

After the first year you will likely rarely if ever have to water. That’s what I love about them. And all the butterflies and bees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not “ saving the planet” with your tiny yard.

Wrong. People like OP are leading the way and WILL affect positive change for the environment, especially when we reach a critical mass. If we’re all rowing in the same direction, we’ll go a lot faster. And one political party is effectively blocking all big movement on solving this at the national level, so we’re going to have to do what we can in our yards.

I was with you until you brought politics into it. Most people, regardless of political party or how much lip service they pay to caring about the environment, demonstrate day after day through their actions that they simply DO NOT CARE.

Hm. Disagree. And in this case, the political aspect is crucial because we are not making huge progress due to the stubbornness of one group of people. Whether or not you like that truth being stated, you agree with my larger point: we can’t make big policy changes right now, so this is in all of our laps.

No snark, honest, but I am actually extremely curious what policy changes one group of politicians has proposed that would help with this issue, and what the other group has done to stymie it?

Trump stopped EPA from banning neonics and destroyed the safeguards for endangered wildlife.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/06/24/epa-inaction-blamed-us-bees-suffer-second-highest-colony-losses-record

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are not “ saving the planet” with your tiny yard.

Wrong. People like OP are leading the way and WILL affect positive change for the environment, especially when we reach a critical mass. If we’re all rowing in the same direction, we’ll go a lot faster. And one political party is effectively blocking all big movement on solving this at the national level, so we’re going to have to do what we can in our yards.

I was with you until you brought politics into it. Most people, regardless of political party or how much lip service they pay to caring about the environment, demonstrate day after day through their actions that they simply DO NOT CARE.

Hm. Disagree. And in this case, the political aspect is crucial because we are not making huge progress due to the stubbornness of one group of people. Whether or not you like that truth being stated, you agree with my larger point: we can’t make big policy changes right now, so this is in all of our laps.

No snark, honest, but I am actually extremely curious what policy changes one group of politicians has proposed that would help with this issue, and what the other group has done to stymie it?