Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

Sorry but this makes no sense either.

The idea is not to make sense out of it, but to believe it. If you do, then you also believe that you will live forever -- which helps some people get through this life, believing that things will be better in some eternal life with a creator who set up such a crazy set of rules.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

Sorry but this makes no sense either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

Sorry but this makes no sense either.

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I am an evangelical Christian and am happy to take a stab at this for you, especially since no one else here will!

To say that Jesus "Redeemed" humanity is to say that He saved us from ourselves - our sin, which is what separates us from God. We are all sinners - everyone of us - me, you, every DCUM reader, everyone. Sin and God cannot co-exist. So because we have it in our lives, we cannot be reunited with God, either here on earth or in the afterlife in Heaven.

Jesus took that sin, died on the cross, went to hell and rose again from the dead. He conquered sin, and death and through Him, we can have the same victory. It is the ultimate redemption because we could never be good enough or in any other way save ourselves. He is our only hope.

Why did He do it? Because God so loved us. He literally sent His Son to die for us in an attempt to get us back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

How in heaven could they sin???

Then they sinned

They did not know right from wrong until they ate the apple. So BEFORE they ate the apple they could not sin because they did not know what they were doing. Once they got the knowledge, then this is another story but how can you say they sin if they did not have the faculties YET.

God specifically told them not to eat the apple, so, while they may not have known sin, they knew what disobedience was and they went ahead and ate the apple anyhow and doomed the rest of humanity forever. If you believe the story, that is.

So if I put a bowl of chocolate ice cream in front of my toddlers that don't know any better, my 'perfect' creations, told them "don't eat the chocolate ice cream" and left.

They are forever damned and they have damned all of humanity because they took a spoon of the ice cream. That was my punishment to them and the rest of humanity for them not obeying.

Then later down the road, I was tired of holding a grudge against humanity and decided to have another kid. Told that one to tell everyone how bad they are and to get himself killed. This way I could show everyone who's really boss and make them understand that they are bad and need to love me or else spend eternal damnation in a ring of fire with a psychotic little red man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

How in heaven could they sin???

Then they sinned

They did not know right from wrong until they ate the apple. So BEFORE they ate the apple they could not sin because they did not know what they were doing. Once they got the knowledge, then this is another story but how can you say they sin if they did not have the faculties YET.

God specifically told them not to eat the apple, so, while they may not have known sin, they knew what disobedience was and they went ahead and ate the apple anyhow and doomed the rest of humanity forever. If you believe the story, that is.

So if I put a bowl of chocolate ice cream in front of my toddlers that don't know any better, my 'perfect' creations, told them "don't eat the chocolate ice cream" and left.

They are forever damned and they have damned all of humanity because they took a spoon of the ice cream. That was my punishment to them and the rest of humanity for them not obeying.

Then later down the road, I was tired of holding a grudge against humanity and decided to have another kid. Told that one to tell everyone how bad they are and to get himself killed. This way I could show everyone who's really boss and make them understand that they are bad and need to love me or else spend eternal damnation in a ring of fire with a psychotic little red man.

Adam and Eve were created sinless. But God gave them a free will. By its definition, in order to be free, they had to be able to choose against God. God told them at the outset “I give you this whole world. Don’t eat that fruit. If you do, you cannot live with me in this garden.” It was their free choice. After that, there was no return to a sinless state. Every human being that followed had a sinful nature, which is basically a bent towards being your own god and doing things your way.

Why?

Why would a loving God kick them out forever? Would a loving parent do that? You ate the ice scream, now out of my house!

Why is there "no return", that's incredibly harsh. Why do these created figures determine the destiny of all people after them?

If the point is free will, why punish for a choice made out of free will?

It's more like a trap. I'm going to lay this mouse trap for you with this bit of cheese that I know you won't be able to resist. Now all the mice after you will also be trapped the same way because that's the purpose of creating the trap. Until I send down a rabbit to be killed for you cheese eating fools so you can learn to beg for forgiveness for touching the trap I set you up to fail with.

And who heard God say don't eat the apple or did he tell someone else later on that he told them not to eat the apple? If there were only him, Adam, and Eve, then it had to be later. So he told Jesus or some other sinning mortal?

Then they tell everyone that their original ancestor wasn't supposed to eat an apple but they did, now they are all sinners and bad people that need to repent. Is it like a "sins of the father" thing so all of humanity bears the burden of Adam and Eve? Like intergenerational transmigratory sin? But there is never an end to that sin then, so what's the point of believing in Jesus?

So "Saved" sinners go to heaven and "Unsaved" sinners to hell? The whole story is sad and kinda sadistic.

It wasn’t a trap. He gave them clear instructions and clear consequences. It could have been anything (don’t eat this fruit, don’t open this box, don’t swim in this lake, etc.). The point is that they had a binary choice: to love and obey God or love and obey their own desires. There can’t be two gods, you can only ever love and obey one. They chose themselves. God can‘t obey Adam or Eve, and they wanted to be little gods to themselves, so they left Eden and reaped the consequence God had warned them about. It was tragic, but even then God didn’t abandon them, He still loved them and cared about their future. All of the Old Testament is a repetition of this. God establishes a people, they are all happy about it, then they decide they don’t like Him all that much and pick up a bunch of other gods along the way. The first commandment is that there can’t be other gods. And hell is God allowing you to be your own god.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The penalty for sin against an infinitely holy God is death. Adam and Eve were made sinless, and therefore immortal. Then they sinned, and death entered the world. So there is a problem: God is perfectly holy. And God is perfectly just. If He decided to just wave away the sin, he would no longer be just. But He very much loved Adam and Eve, so He set up a system wherein when they sinned, they could offer a sacrifice that would “take the penalty“ of the sin (die) and they would still be in God‘s presence. The Old Testament is basically one long series of this contract sin (break with God)-death (sacrifice)-reconcile.
One man, Jesus, ended this cycle. He lived a perfectly sinless life, but took on every one of our sins at his death, and therefore paid the permanent price for us to be with God forever.

How in heaven could they sin???

Then they sinned

They did not know right from wrong until they ate the apple. So BEFORE they ate the apple they could not sin because they did not know what they were doing. Once they got the knowledge, then this is another story but how can you say they sin if they did not have the faculties YET.

God specifically told them not to eat the apple, so, while they may not have known sin, they knew what disobedience was and they went ahead and ate the apple anyhow and doomed the rest of humanity forever. If you believe the story, that is.

So if I put a bowl of chocolate ice cream in front of my toddlers that don't know any better, my 'perfect' creations, told them "don't eat the chocolate ice cream" and left.

They are forever damned and they have damned all of humanity because they took a spoon of the ice cream. That was my punishment to them and the rest of humanity for them not obeying.

Then later down the road, I was tired of holding a grudge against humanity and decided to have another kid. Told that one to tell everyone how bad they are and to get himself killed. This way I could show everyone who's really boss and make them understand that they are bad and need to love me or else spend eternal damnation in a ring of fire with a psychotic little red man.

Adam and Eve were created sinless. But God gave them a free will. By its definition, in order to be free, they had to be able to choose against God. God told them at the outset “I give you this whole world. Don’t eat that fruit. If you do, you cannot live with me in this garden.” It was their free choice. After that, there was no return to a sinless state. Every human being that followed had a sinful nature, which is basically a bent towards being your own god and doing things your way.

Why?

Why would a loving God kick them out forever? Would a loving parent do that? You ate the ice scream, now out of my house!

Why is there "no return", that's incredibly harsh. Why do these created figures determine the destiny of all people after them?

If the point is free will, why punish for a choice made out of free will?

It's more like a trap. I'm going to lay this mouse trap for you with this bit of cheese that I know you won't be able to resist. Now all the mice after you will also be trapped the same way because that's the purpose of creating the trap. Until I send down a rabbit to be killed for you cheese eating fools so you can learn to beg for forgiveness for touching the trap I set you up to fail with.

And who heard God say don't eat the apple or did he tell someone else later on that he told them not to eat the apple? If there were only him, Adam, and Eve, then it had to be later. So he told Jesus or some other sinning mortal?

Then they tell everyone that their original ancestor wasn't supposed to eat an apple but they did, now they are all sinners and bad people that need to repent. Is it like a "sins of the father" thing so all of humanity bears the burden of Adam and Eve? Like intergenerational transmigratory sin? But there is never an end to that sin then, so what's the point of believing in Jesus?

So "Saved" sinners go to heaven and "Unsaved" sinners to hell? The whole story is sad and kinda sadistic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I am an evangelical Christian and am happy to take a stab at this for you, especially since no one else here will!

To say that Jesus "Redeemed" humanity is to say that He saved us from ourselves - our sin, which is what separates us from God. We are all sinners - everyone of us - me, you, every DCUM reader, everyone. Sin and God cannot co-exist. So because we have it in our lives, we cannot be reunited with God, either here on earth or in the afterlife in Heaven.

Jesus took that sin, died on the cross, went to hell and rose again from the dead. He conquered sin, and death and through Him, we can have the same victory. It is the ultimate redemption because we could never be good enough or in any other way save ourselves. He is our only hope.

Why did He do it? Because God so loved us. He literally sent His Son to die for us in an attempt to get us back.

This makes zero sense.

How did he 'take the sin'? What does dying on a cross have to do with it, lots of people died on crosses back then? Rising from the dead means conquering sin?

Please elaborate on this thing you call sin. It's something that can be taken, something that can be conquered, something that everyone is, something that everyone does, and it's something that is something but cannot co-exist with God who is supposed to be a creator?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:By analogy: say there is a bank that opens in your neighborhood that offers a special ticket to get to heaven. So you open and account and they tell you “cool, you just need to earn 500,000 units of goodness and then you can get your ticket to heaven. These are the things you have to do to earn units (help your neighbor, call your mom, etc.). The catch is that you lose units when you do all these things you shouldn’t (lie, overeat, gossip, swear, hate, envy, etc.).” So you work for a few weeks and you earn some units, but then you lose a bunch too. After a few exhausting months, you check your account and you actually owe the bank now. There is obviously no way you will ever get that ticket.
So now imagine Jesus is the only person who ever earned that ticket to heaven. And now he literally signs you onto his account, you have a debit card with your name on in, and every penny in that account is yours (including heaven). That’s redemption.

I dislike this analogy because it’s like God set the price (500,000) to begin with, knowing you’ll never get there, and the he paid it himself and wants us to praise him? He caused the problem!!! I like the wounded animal analogy better.

He didn’t really set a price though. The whole problem rests on the enormous gulf between an infinitely holy God and sinful humans. The Old Testament is kind of like God trying to help people come “up” to Him (which will never, ever work, we just can’t be that holy) and Jesus was Him coming “down” to us. I think a lot of the confusion over Jesus’ death would disappear if people truly understood how holy God is and how desperately, in-our-bones we love sin more than Him.

Except some people aren't confused or bereft of understanding -- They simply don't believe.