Why can’t we just call it what it is - staying at home with kids is a luxury that most of us cannot afford. Yes, most working parents are jealous because we have to work outside of the home and try to balance housework and raising our children. And yes it is really annoying to hear SAHPs constantly justifying their choice and explaining over and over how very hard and important their role is. There are plenty of reasons to be a working parent, but for most of us it comes down to money. If money was not an issue, I’d guess that most moms and dads would stay home.

Staying home is like any other luxury. If you or your spouse worked hard and saved enough money to install a pool in your backyard, would you feel compelled to constantly justify the expense by claiming the pool will help your children grow up to be well rounded swimmers? Would you feel guilty for having a pool while your neighbors do not? No. Of course not. You would just enjoy the pool.

If you are a SAHP, just accept that you are one of the privileged few. Own it. Enjoy it. And stop being a martyr.

Just as a nanny takes pride in her work, I value my own as a SAHM. After those daytime hours, we are all moms, working or not, so that's all equivalent. But my work during the day is the same as what a nanny does plus housework, I'm just not outsourcing that.

This thread is beyond stupid. MOST (not all, obviously) of the “noble” professions OP listed aren’t contributing to SOCIETY in any meaningful way, anyway. They ARE contributing to their own families’ bottom line, however, if that is what OP means?

I agree this is the worst SAHM/working mom threads.

Anonymous wrote:This came up in one of the threads, that we (as a society) should start to value unpaid caretaking as much as we do outside work, with the assumption that SAHMs are already doing this.

I don’t equate my worth with outside work at all. I know it’s not as valuable. I do it because someone has to, and, since I’d like to do it, why shouldn’t that someone be me? That’s it, that’s the sum total of my reasoning. I know I’m not as important as a doctor or scientist or lawyer, etc. and it would never occur to me to try to make that claim.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think unpaid caretaking should be valued more? Will it ever be? I don’t see it.

OP, as someone who is one of those professions, people on DCUM (and one person in real life) tell me all the time that I'm just a cog in the wheel, utterly replaceable, and a terrible mother for working instead of staying with your kids. So, just an FYI, with any job, people are going to say you're worthless unless you're a SAHM. Which is ironic, given your post.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

Lol!!! This was a good one. I’m not sure you know what either of those things mean.

One way to think about it is opportunity cost. What would it cost to hire someone to do what I do if I couldn’t do it? Even if you just count childcare expenses, it’s a lot! Certainly more than I ever made when I was working. The additional flexibility built into our lives by having me around during the day to take care of errands and so forth also has a value, though it’s harder to put a number on it.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

You trotted out an ivy league degree and your wealth as a reason you feel you should be respected, not because you are a caregiver. Give me a break. People who are down to earth don't brag like this to try to indicate they are worthy of respect. If you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't go on like this.

And I'm a pp who advocates for giving more respect to all caregivers, but you are just too much.

How would you know I was valuable if I didn’t?

I don’t tell people where I went to school in real life. I was just answering the thread.

You honestly cannot just answer the thread by saying, my DH and I both value the work I do with our kids. We are happy with our choice...or something like that without mentioning your degree and wealth?

For an Ivy Leaguer, you are pretty obtuse.

Money and a fancy degree do not necessarily a good SAHM make.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

You trotted out an ivy league degree and your wealth as a reason you feel you should be respected, not because you are a caregiver. Give me a break. People who are down to earth don't brag like this to try to indicate they are worthy of respect. If you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't go on like this.

And I'm a pp who advocates for giving more respect to all caregivers, but you are just too much.

How would you know I was valuable if I didn’t?

I don’t tell people where I went to school in real life. I was just answering the thread.

You honestly cannot just answer the thread by saying, my DH and I both value the work I do with our kids. We are happy with our choice...or something like that without mentioning your degree and wealth?

For an Ivy Leaguer, you are pretty obtuse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

You trotted out an ivy league degree and your wealth as a reason you feel you should be respected, not because you are a caregiver. Give me a break. People who are down to earth don't brag like this to try to indicate they are worthy of respect. If you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't go on like this.

And I'm a pp who advocates for giving more respect to all caregivers, but you are just too much.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

You trotted out an ivy league degree and your wealth as a reason you feel you should be respected, not because you are a caregiver. Give me a break. People who are down to earth don't brag like this to try to indicate they are worthy of respect. If you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't go on like this.

And I'm a pp who advocates for giving more respect to all caregivers, but you are just too much.

How would you know I was valuable if I didn’t?

I don’t tell people where I went to school in real life. I was just answering the thread.

I think being a SAHP is just as valuable as a working parent. The goal is a happy and emotionally healthy family. Of course, sometimes it requires two incomes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.

You trotted out an ivy league degree and your wealth as a reason you feel you should be respected, not because you are a caregiver. Give me a break. People who are down to earth don't brag like this to try to indicate they are worthy of respect. If you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't go on like this.

And I'm a pp who advocates for giving more respect to all caregivers, but you are just too much.

"Is there value to the work a SAHM does?" is maybe the stupidest of all SAH vs WOH DCUM threads I've ever read, which is saying a lot.

That being said, this NYT Magazine article is on-topic and an interesting perspective: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/magazine/waged-housework.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you value a good nanny’s work? And a great housekeeper? And a home manager? And a personal chef? That’s the roughly job of a SAHP - man or woman.

I don't agree with this way of looking at it. All WOH/WAH parents still have to do housekeeping, home managing, and cooking the meals. Some people outsource a lot of that but that is not limited to working parents, SAH parents outsource, too, if they have the funds.

So what it really comes down to is the difference between taking care of your children full-time vs. having someone assist with childcare while you work, usually for some part of the day. That's really the only difference with a SAHP.

NP here. So you’re saying a SAHM has the nanny job. I mean a really good college educated nanny’s job.

Essentially, yes. My DH and I both work. Between us we do all the household finances and management, cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. Are you saying because we work that doesn't count, but for SAHMs it counts more?

No, I’m saying the SAHP has the nanny job. Nannies teach and care for the children. Some handle child-related chores like kids laundry and cooking for children.

And nannies aren’t respected so SAHP wouldn’t be either.

I’m an Ivy educated SAHM. DH always tells me how his colleagues and friends tell him how lucky he is to have me as a wife. My kids are thriving and well rounded. Many of his friends complain about their wives lack of being involved. DH is proud of me and my efforts with our children.

Your post made me sad for you. You never said how you feel about what you’re doing - but mentioned twice how your husband feels about your worth. You sound like Betty draper from Mad Men. How you feel about you is what matters.

Please think about this, PP. Your comment is heartbreaking.

I am at the beach with my kids right now in the middle of a pandemic. We are having a great time. Today was 88 degrees and sunny. Your heart does not have to break for me.

We ski when we want. We read. We bake. We go on stroller walks and hikes. I feel really fortunate that I am not working and home. I think it would be much more stressful to juggle kids and work in the middle of a pandemic.

Pp is the one who said a SAHM has a nanny’s job and not respected.

I think the point many of us on this thread have been trying to make is that it is a problem in our society that childcare is not valued. Both the SAHP and the nanny or any caretaker should be worthy of respect if they are good at their caretaking, because caretaking is important.

You, on the other hand, respond to all this by just bragging. You may be a great mom to your kids, but you come off as another insecure woman who has to brag about her wealth to make herself feel good about herself. It's annoying and gauche.

I only responded that way because the pp said taking care of children is not respected. I said DH respected me. I respect myself. I feel I have high value and my time is valuable. Therefore, my caring for my children is both valuable and respectable.

I know it may not sound like it on an anonymous forum but DH and I are quite humble and down to earth. We come from humble beginnings. Both of us are loyal to a fault and have friends from all different backgrounds from various times in our past. I have friends who work out a lot or cook a lot. I just like to travel a lot. Half the time we travel with our friends so they also like to travel.