Anonymous
02/18/2021 18:20
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
It makes me sad that so many of these responses focus on failures of women. Sometimes it has nothing at all to do with your self-esteem, sense of worth, or traumatic upbringing. The fact is that MEN are not taught to be loving, caring partners.
Boys who exhibit the kind of emotions and behaviors women WANT as adults are shamed, called sissies or worse, and told they needed to learn how to act like a "real" man. The result of this is a shockingly low supply of truly good male partners for women. Meanwhile, society continues to tell women that their main goal in life should be to get married and have kids. Yeah yeah, go ahead and get an education and travel and find yourself if that makes you feel better, but all of that is in pursuit of finding Mr. Right.
So we have on one side, a pool of underwhelming men, and on the other side, a pool of women who have to choose between being alone indefinitely or settling for what's available. But yes, it's the women's fault for picking men who treat them poorly.
Boys who exhibit the kind of emotions and behaviors women WANT as adults are shamed, called sissies or worse, and told they needed to learn how to act like a "real" man. The result of this is a shockingly low supply of truly good male partners for women. Meanwhile, society continues to tell women that their main goal in life should be to get married and have kids. Yeah yeah, go ahead and get an education and travel and find yourself if that makes you feel better, but all of that is in pursuit of finding Mr. Right.
So we have on one side, a pool of underwhelming men, and on the other side, a pool of women who have to choose between being alone indefinitely or settling for what's available. But yes, it's the women's fault for picking men who treat them poorly.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 18:15
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
I believe that mental breakdowns happen and that sometimes individuals change out of the blue. That said, it is rare.
The fact that physical abuse may not start until well into a relationship does not mean that she could not have known or it was not predictable. Otherwise, why do some women keep picking abusive men? Why do children from abusive families so often find themselves in abusive relationships? It is because the relationship dynamic, which is completely dysfunctional, feels normal to them because that is what they know and they do not know how to behave in a different kind of relationship.
I also believe it is not rare for partners to not know their spouses are cheating because people just cannot compartmentalize that well. There are signs. The person being abused or cheated on is choosing to ignore the signs or tht is how relationships feel, but they are there.
It is very sad.
The fact that physical abuse may not start until well into a relationship does not mean that she could not have known or it was not predictable. Otherwise, why do some women keep picking abusive men? Why do children from abusive families so often find themselves in abusive relationships? It is because the relationship dynamic, which is completely dysfunctional, feels normal to them because that is what they know and they do not know how to behave in a different kind of relationship.
I also believe it is not rare for partners to not know their spouses are cheating because people just cannot compartmentalize that well. There are signs. The person being abused or cheated on is choosing to ignore the signs or tht is how relationships feel, but they are there.
It is very sad.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 17:52
Subject: Re:Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Just speaking for myself — overly critical mother/low self esteem, failed LTR in my 20s, average looking and socially awkward so never got much attention from men.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 08:20
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I almost went down this road. It was like the analogy of the frog in the pot of water. It started fine, and the warning signs and trouble came on so gradually, so subtly, they were easy to ignore. I was gaslighting myself.
Yep
Most of the time the guy doesn’t start out being a jerk
Yep. I was a confident, successful woman. I fell for a narc who broke me over a 14 year marriage.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 08:13
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh and also, blames the women for “picking” these men rather than asking the question “why do so many men treat women shabbily”
We all need self responsibility though. There are women who treat men poorly too. The only way to protect yourself is not to put up with poor behaviour to start with. If women refused to date men like this, the men would be forced to be single or change. Why would men change when there are so many women prepared to put up with their crazy behaviour.
I know people don't like hearing this but you don't walk through Rome with your wallet in your back pocket, you should be able to but you can't so you protect yourself.
In relationships you have to protect yourself as well. For me the question is why are women so afraid to speak up, still today, why do they have such low self esteem, why do they put up with that behaviour, they should be walking away.
Yup. You've cracked the code. Men are terrible because women put up with them. You've solved the mystery
Why are women so afraid to speak up? It can't be because we live in a society where women aren't believed when they report crimes to the police. It can't be because crimes against women are taken So Seriously that the overwhelming majority of rape kits are not tested. There's no way it's because men with a known history of sexual harassment is moved around, even in a major West Coast company, until a former AG gets involved in the investigation. The problem must be the women.
Great so eyeroll because you have gone from 0 to 1000 in one leap. Take it to the top, to women reporting sexual assault.
How about you take it down a notch to maybe 0-100 and women can start say expecting respect in relationships. My point is that as soon as a man shows red flags, they should be running. As soon as he lies, as soon as he stands them up for a date, disrespects them, they walk away. How about the first time he hits them, they leave, they don't get married to him, then stay in an abusive relationship and then a few years down the track, die at his hands. It really is that simple, if a man gets violent to you or throws things at you, you leave, you don't stay in that relationship. You do not ask him to change, or go to counselling, no, you pack your bag and you leave because it's unacceptable and women do this the very first time it happens.
That is the point I am making. Men have a problem, even men are afraid of other men and their anger and violence. Women cannot make them change but they can simply not accept this BS and perhaps slowly men may realise that this behaviour is not acceptable not only to women but to other men.
While women continue to stay in these relationships they will continue to be the victim when they don't need to be, they can walk away. It is a start but you eyeroll and come up with problems. I am not saying women are the problem, I am saying women should protect themselves and staying with a man who hits them isn't protecting themselves. How can you not see that?
How can you not see that numerous women would still be alive today if they had of walked away at the first punch?
Incorrect. They would still be alive today if the man hadn’t killed them. Stop trying to make them complicit in their own deaths.
Great so you keep telling women to stay with their abusive husband because he shouldn't be abusive. Great idea. Yes the husband killed them and husbands will continue doing that, so the only advice I could give to a woman is to get herself out. Help herself. It is not blaming the female, it is telling females to run and protect themselves.
Do you seriously think an abusive man is going to be told to stop and he will. I should be able to have my wallet with all my money in my back pocket in Rome because people shouldn't steal from me but you know what they do pick pocket and so people protect themselves by putting their money elsewhere and being cautious. Its so funny to me that it is perfectly logical to people that they understand that people do the wrong thing and they need to be careful but you are saying that women in an abusive relationship should be ok, the man shouldn't kill so that's all that needs to be said. Uh no the person that may become a victim should protect themselves just like we do every single day in numerous different ways. It's why we lock our house, have alarms etc. We shouldn't have to do any of that, other people should respect our property and belongings but sometimes they don't. Why is this any different? In most of these cases the story isn't that it just happened, there is sometimes a long history of abuse, so perhaps rather than simply saying, its about the man, change it to its about the woman protecting herself and its ok to leave.
How can you not get that.
I have never told an abused wife to stay with her spouse, and I have always believed and supported women who told me they were victims. That’s what will change this— not victim blaming which is what you are doing (possibly intentionally, possibly not).
My experience of abusive men is that there is never a first time, there are a number of minor things in different environments that were overlooked or brushed under the rug that lead them to believe they can and will continue to get away with it. Like when a woman complains about his behavior to HR and is told that this is a first offense even when there is a documented history of the behavior (happened at Uber). Or when a woman reports abusive behavior and is herself disciplined (google “rape in the armed forces”) or when a girl reports a rape in a small town and the police do not investigate, despite witnesses, because the rapist is a football player and grandson of a state senator (easily found by google, I believe the victim recently died by suicide.)
Those system societal realities are why, when a woman’s husband “treats her shabbily” if she has children, she knows if she leaves she may not get full custody of those children— because she will not believed. She will have to leave her children with a violent man 50% of the time. The most common time for spousal abuse to begin is pregnancy. The leading cause of death in pregnant women is murder by their partners. The problem is not that women don’t leave. The problem is that men are enabled, and women are not believed until it is too late.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 04:52
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh and also, blames the women for “picking” these men rather than asking the question “why do so many men treat women shabbily”
We all need self responsibility though. There are women who treat men poorly too. The only way to protect yourself is not to put up with poor behaviour to start with. If women refused to date men like this, the men would be forced to be single or change. Why would men change when there are so many women prepared to put up with their crazy behaviour.
I know people don't like hearing this but you don't walk through Rome with your wallet in your back pocket, you should be able to but you can't so you protect yourself.
In relationships you have to protect yourself as well. For me the question is why are women so afraid to speak up, still today, why do they have such low self esteem, why do they put up with that behaviour, they should be walking away.
Yup. You've cracked the code. Men are terrible because women put up with them. You've solved the mystery
Why are women so afraid to speak up? It can't be because we live in a society where women aren't believed when they report crimes to the police. It can't be because crimes against women are taken So Seriously that the overwhelming majority of rape kits are not tested. There's no way it's because men with a known history of sexual harassment is moved around, even in a major West Coast company, until a former AG gets involved in the investigation. The problem must be the women.
Great so eyeroll because you have gone from 0 to 1000 in one leap. Take it to the top, to women reporting sexual assault.
How about you take it down a notch to maybe 0-100 and women can start say expecting respect in relationships. My point is that as soon as a man shows red flags, they should be running. As soon as he lies, as soon as he stands them up for a date, disrespects them, they walk away. How about the first time he hits them, they leave, they don't get married to him, then stay in an abusive relationship and then a few years down the track, die at his hands. It really is that simple, if a man gets violent to you or throws things at you, you leave, you don't stay in that relationship. You do not ask him to change, or go to counselling, no, you pack your bag and you leave because it's unacceptable and women do this the very first time it happens.
That is the point I am making. Men have a problem, even men are afraid of other men and their anger and violence. Women cannot make them change but they can simply not accept this BS and perhaps slowly men may realise that this behaviour is not acceptable not only to women but to other men.
While women continue to stay in these relationships they will continue to be the victim when they don't need to be, they can walk away. It is a start but you eyeroll and come up with problems. I am not saying women are the problem, I am saying women should protect themselves and staying with a man who hits them isn't protecting themselves. How can you not see that?
How can you not see that numerous women would still be alive today if they had of walked away at the first punch?
Incorrect. They would still be alive today if the man hadn’t killed them. Stop trying to make them complicit in their own deaths.
Great so you keep telling women to stay with their abusive husband because he shouldn't be abusive. Great idea. Yes the husband killed them and husbands will continue doing that, so the only advice I could give to a woman is to get herself out. Help herself. It is not blaming the female, it is telling females to run and protect themselves.
Do you seriously think an abusive man is going to be told to stop and he will. I should be able to have my wallet with all my money in my back pocket in Rome because people shouldn't steal from me but you know what they do pick pocket and so people protect themselves by putting their money elsewhere and being cautious. Its so funny to me that it is perfectly logical to people that they understand that people do the wrong thing and they need to be careful but you are saying that women in an abusive relationship should be ok, the man shouldn't kill so that's all that needs to be said. Uh no the person that may become a victim should protect themselves just like we do every single day in numerous different ways. It's why we lock our house, have alarms etc. We shouldn't have to do any of that, other people should respect our property and belongings but sometimes they don't. Why is this any different? In most of these cases the story isn't that it just happened, there is sometimes a long history of abuse, so perhaps rather than simply saying, its about the man, change it to its about the woman protecting herself and its ok to leave.
How can you not get that.
NP. You introduce a lot of good suggestions. There isn’t one singular action but many broadly applied to address the idea of teaching an old dog new tricks. The points being debated here are not mutually exclusive by any means. Abuse is wrong. Victims and survivors need to be protected, abusers not tolerated or their abusive grooming normalized. And there should be widespread support in what that looks like. It is almost always a complex dynamic that isn’t easily deconstructed.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 04:43
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Girls are taught to be nice and always consider how what they do affects others' feelings. They also worry about making mistakes when presenting facts and often caveat statements. Men (often) bluster ahead without worry about making mistakes. This is a setup for women to be vulnerable to gaslighting.
I think the most critical skill I can teach my daughters is how to have hard conversations with people they care about. I demonstrate how to do this in my interactions with them and with their dad (my husband).
I don't expect to be taken care of and treated like a queen. I do expect to be respected and loved. My husband and I are pretty equitable in our relationship and we talk about it when we are not.
Honestly, this is such a critical and valuable trait that is a cornerstone of a healthy relationship. Any type, romantic, platonic, familial, professional. So many people simply don’t have this capability without emotional pollution and/or defensiveness.
There is a way to be direct without being confrontational; to discuss things that make you uncomfortable without being made uncomfortable to discuss them. Love and respect requires this reciprocation to keep what is good consistent; to make strides towards a shared idealistic view.
People are lazy and insecure and it is difficult for them to be vulnerable and put in so much work for a personal reward they don’t value or understand.
Anonymous
02/18/2021 03:55
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh and also, blames the women for “picking” these men rather than asking the question “why do so many men treat women shabbily”
We all need self responsibility though. There are women who treat men poorly too. The only way to protect yourself is not to put up with poor behaviour to start with. If women refused to date men like this, the men would be forced to be single or change. Why would men change when there are so many women prepared to put up with their crazy behaviour.
I know people don't like hearing this but you don't walk through Rome with your wallet in your back pocket, you should be able to but you can't so you protect yourself.
In relationships you have to protect yourself as well. For me the question is why are women so afraid to speak up, still today, why do they have such low self esteem, why do they put up with that behaviour, they should be walking away.
Yup. You've cracked the code. Men are terrible because women put up with them. You've solved the mystery
Why are women so afraid to speak up? It can't be because we live in a society where women aren't believed when they report crimes to the police. It can't be because crimes against women are taken So Seriously that the overwhelming majority of rape kits are not tested. There's no way it's because men with a known history of sexual harassment is moved around, even in a major West Coast company, until a former AG gets involved in the investigation. The problem must be the women.
Great so eyeroll because you have gone from 0 to 1000 in one leap. Take it to the top, to women reporting sexual assault.
How about you take it down a notch to maybe 0-100 and women can start say expecting respect in relationships. My point is that as soon as a man shows red flags, they should be running. As soon as he lies, as soon as he stands them up for a date, disrespects them, they walk away. How about the first time he hits them, they leave, they don't get married to him, then stay in an abusive relationship and then a few years down the track, die at his hands. It really is that simple, if a man gets violent to you or throws things at you, you leave, you don't stay in that relationship. You do not ask him to change, or go to counselling, no, you pack your bag and you leave because it's unacceptable and women do this the very first time it happens.
That is the point I am making. Men have a problem, even men are afraid of other men and their anger and violence. Women cannot make them change but they can simply not accept this BS and perhaps slowly men may realise that this behaviour is not acceptable not only to women but to other men.
While women continue to stay in these relationships they will continue to be the victim when they don't need to be, they can walk away. It is a start but you eyeroll and come up with problems. I am not saying women are the problem, I am saying women should protect themselves and staying with a man who hits them isn't protecting themselves. How can you not see that?
How can you not see that numerous women would still be alive today if they had of walked away at the first punch?
Incorrect. They would still be alive today if the man hadn’t killed them. Stop trying to make them complicit in their own deaths.
Great so you keep telling women to stay with their abusive husband because he shouldn't be abusive. Great idea. Yes the husband killed them and husbands will continue doing that, so the only advice I could give to a woman is to get herself out. Help herself. It is not blaming the female, it is telling females to run and protect themselves.
Do you seriously think an abusive man is going to be told to stop and he will. I should be able to have my wallet with all my money in my back pocket in Rome because people shouldn't steal from me but you know what they do pick pocket and so people protect themselves by putting their money elsewhere and being cautious. Its so funny to me that it is perfectly logical to people that they understand that people do the wrong thing and they need to be careful but you are saying that women in an abusive relationship should be ok, the man shouldn't kill so that's all that needs to be said. Uh no the person that may become a victim should protect themselves just like we do every single day in numerous different ways. It's why we lock our house, have alarms etc. We shouldn't have to do any of that, other people should respect our property and belongings but sometimes they don't. Why is this any different? In most of these cases the story isn't that it just happened, there is sometimes a long history of abuse, so perhaps rather than simply saying, its about the man, change it to its about the woman protecting herself and its ok to leave.
How can you not get that.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:58
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I almost went down this road. It was like the analogy of the frog in the pot of water. It started fine, and the warning signs and trouble came on so gradually, so subtly, they were easy to ignore. I was gaslighting myself.
Yep
Most of the time the guy doesn’t start out being a jerk
Exactly! None of these guys are slapping you on the first date or calling you names. It is a slow progression. Sometimes red flags are ignored because 99% of the time things are great. Slowly it becomes maybe 80% of the time things are great and he apologized for calling you a b*tch during an argument. It can later escalate once you have a mortgage, kids, located in the right school district, etc. basically your lives are so integrated that getting out is extremely hard.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:55
Subject: Re:Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Absent or abusive father.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:53
Subject: Re:Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:I do think it goes back to a strong father figure or other male role model.
Thx for the cliche.
Try again and be specific.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:46
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
I should add he thinks his Dx is wrong and everyone else is crazy. It is spot on. He refuses to even read a book about it.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:45
Subject: Re:Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
omg, this is me now. Husband hit a wall of stress with two kids, house, wife and work and is now verbally abusive to me in front of the kids. He went in for a neuropsych due to his “forgetfulness” and “anger issues” (and poor communication. It was Hugh functioning autism and bipolar.Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you why I did...
He was great until I was pregnant with our 2 nd child. He had a metal health breakdown. There were no signs that he would end up being terrible to me.
As soon as I noticed an issues I sought therapy.
Everybody missed it, my therapist, my family, my friends.
I would describe his behavior and I was told... marriage is work, everybody has ups and downs, it gets better when the kids are older, this is totally normal with young kids, you are being too sensitive, you need to fulfill his emotional needs.
After a few years I did my own research, diagnosed him, found and fired many therapist until I found one that could help (lots of bad therapists out there).
Not sure what therapy to do or what’s best for kids. Stay or go. They’d have to sink or swim with him and they’re still lower elementary school.m
Anonymous
02/17/2021 22:39
Subject: Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:1. They're stupid
2. They're inexperienced with men
3. Low self esteem
4. A combo of any of the above three
And 5. They watched their dad or male family members treat women badly.
This.
Even Dad saying shut up or b1tch weekly is horrible for sons and daughters. Abusive.
Anonymous
02/17/2021 20:03
Subject: Re:Why do some women pick men who treat them shabbily?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I do think it goes back to a strong father figure or other male role model.
Nope. And honestly the misogyny is strong in this statement.
Not at all. It’s well known that if you’re abused by your parents, you’re likely to do the same, unless you actively try to prevent it. This is similar. If you watch your father being an a-hole, you’re conditioned to believe all men are like that.
And if you are a guy you end up like him under stress