Anonymous wrote:
Baltimore residents have a skewed perspective. When your baseline for crime is Baltimore, you'll think neighborhoods like Canton, CV, Hamden, Roland Park are fine, yet they still have very high levels of crime. There is a reason. Baltimore is cheap, so many homes are for sale in Baltimore, and nothing appreciates. Everyone leaves the city when they get older and have kids. It is rare in Baltimore to see many people pushing around strollers and having school aged kids because everyone leaves when they start families when taxes, schools, and safety start to matter.

Spoken as someone who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

It is far from rare to see families in Baltimore. From the older families in Roland Park to the young ones in Canton and Hampden, it's absolutely false. My kid is in a RP private school and a solid third of his classmates are from the city. There are a LOT of high-end strollers being pushed around within city limits (and even more not-high-end-strollers, but I suspect you think those families don't count).

Also patently false to say that crime is high in Hampden and Roland Park etc. There was a murder in Roland Park in 2016, every freaked out, and people still talk about it. Your car might get broken into, sure. But I lived in a neighborhood approximately 100000x seedier than any of the neighborhoods you've mentioned, and nobody I knew there experienced violent crime. Crime tends to be concentrated and that's not where it's concentrated.

But don't take my word for it. Crime statistics are readily available. All the maps show the same thing: the "white L" is pretty darn safe, and the "black butterfly" is not. We absolutely need to fight for a safer city for ALL Baltimore residents -- but don't pretend that the pain is equally spread throughout the city. It plainly is not.

Anonymous wrote:If you have girls, check out Bryn Mawr. Believe it is still considered the best top private HS in the state, and the lower and middle school educations are fantastic as well.

As someone mentioned, once you hit upper school, you’ll be paying 30k which is still a hell of a lot better than the 50k in most DC privates.

We had our kid in a preschool we loved in DC and almost stayed for (which in retrospect, was quite silly) and now have her in a great program for a 1/3 of the cost. Huge weight off our shoulders, financially and mentally.

What people don’t understand in this thread is that you can live in Roland Park and send your kid to Bryn Mawr for much less than to live in a place like Cleveland Park and send your kid to a public high school like Wilson. Bryn Mawr is one of the best private schools Maryland and is almost equivalent to sending your DD to Holton Arms. You could live in a neighborhood with dozens of hip walkable restaurants and bars like Hampden and send your child to Friends, Guilford, Roland Park Country Day, or Bryn Mawr and do so for $5k a month ($2,000 a month tops for a renovated 2,000 sq ft rowhome with high end finished and $3,000 a month tops for your child’s elite private school tuition). That kind of life is feasible for UMC dual income couples making around $200k a year. $5,000 a month in DC gives you barely enough to afford a comparable rowhome on H St.

And PP’s assertion that a place like Roland Park is dangerous is untrue. Compare Roland Park crime stats to Cleveland Park and it’s comparable and probably slightly less. Roland Park has much less crime than a place like Brookland however, and much better schools.

We were in a similar situation but with no kids. Today we're closing on a new build in eastern Baltimore County, on the water near the Back River and Chesapeake Bay. Water access, private pier with boat ramp, and hiking trails across from our property. We'll have 3k sq ft of living with 2 decks overlooking the water for just over $500k. Space will not be an issue there. Schools from what I can tell are just okay. Neighborhood is a mix of blue and white collar folks, ranging from construction foreman, firefighters, lawyers, doctors, software execs, military NCO's. Downside is the grocery stores and restaurant options are lacking. A lot of seafood, pizza, and sandwich options but not much outside of that.

We're keeping the condo in Shaw for the foreseeable future and will NOT rent it out either. We're seeing the impact of covid on the condo resale market and we'll wait to see what happens in a year.

If you have girls, check out Bryn Mawr. Believe it is still considered the best top private HS in the state, and the lower and middle school educations are fantastic as well.

As someone mentioned, once you hit upper school, you’ll be paying 30k which is still a hell of a lot better than the 50k in most DC privates.

We had our kid in a preschool we loved in DC and almost stayed for (which in retrospect, was quite silly) and now have her in a great program for a 1/3 of the cost. Huge weight off our shoulders, financially and mentally.

Anonymous wrote:OP here again. I really appreciate all this insight -- keep it coming! It is a tricky choice to make and it's great hearing all the different perspectives. I feel like DH and I have been talking about this for years (well, technically we have been, though it's only gotten real in 2020) so it's really great to have all these insights.

I definitely think part of our hang up is that we've been in DC for a long time where prices just go up up up and so there was a little bit of shock/surprise to see how much that is not true in Baltimore. It's ironic because the rapid appreciation in DC was the bane of our existence not that long ago when we were buying and could feel ourselves rapidly being priced out of the market (we were extremely lucky to snag our condo when we did, as two years later I think we really would have been priced out). Also, my parents (who live in a totally different part of the country) financed most of their retirement on house appreciation by downsizing as empty nesters and as people who do not make a ton of money, the idea of having a sound real estate investment we could cash in on in 20 years or so is very appealing. Obviously we have retirement savings as well, but I got sold on the idea of real estate as a long term investment vehicle a long time ago and it's hard to make the mental adjustment. But of course, affordability goes hand in hand with flat prices -- that's the trade-off we need to decide if we can take.

Speaking of sports, though, that might be the biggest strike against Baltimore. We hare HUGE, longtime Nationals fans and while we enjoy rooting for the O's as our AL team, we will miss not being able to go to weeknight Nats games in DC a lot.

It's just hard to leave a place you've lived in for a really longtime, even for a city that is just up the road!

I’m the PP who hated on the Ravens. (Kidding! Sorta!)

I’m afraid I’m going to come off a little tough love as I go through this. But, first off, being a fan of another sports team in Baltimore really isn’t a huge deal. Rumor has it there are even some Steelers fans that live in the city, god help them. Of course you’ll be outnumbered by Os fans, but there are a fair amount of Nats folks who live in Baltimore and (of course) even more in the counties to the city’s south.

But yes, absolutely, you will not be going to Nats games a ton of weekdays. Maybe some Os games, if you get into them (and Camden Yards is fun!). You will have to come up with your own fun thing to do for Nats games at home—special snacks, drinks, whatever.

But I noticed in your post the only pluses about Baltimore you mention are the cost of houses and that is what you’ve focused on in your responses. I don’t mean to dismiss the importance of making an investment you’re comfortable in but for y’all to make this move there have to be more pluses for you than the base cost of the house—both when it comes to the city itself and your longterm goals. The city has a great, unique culture and paying less for your house and potential private school (which sounds like you’re heading for in DC if you stay) frees up a lot of money for other investments. The bar scene is fun and laid back—as well as continuing to embrace the city’s rye history, which is neat—and the food scene is interesting. You’ll meet a lot less people interested in what you do for a living.

I get how hard it can be leaving a place you’re comfortable in. We moved from a city we loved in a house we adored in the south up to this area—I still miss living there nearly every single day. But there are a lot of great things about living here too and, ultimately, it made a lot more sense for us to be here for this season of life. If you can’t find enough reasons to make the jump past the fact you can get a super cool house in Fed on a good block for a fraction of a comparable place in most areas of DC, then think you should stay put.

Good luck!

Baltimore has been up-and-coming according to Baltimore residents for the last 40 years. I mean Pigtown is supposed to be the next SoHo according to residents drinking the koolaid, yet we've been waiting decades for it. Yet prices stagnate , which means you actually take a loss when you factor in the costs for upkeep, taxes, and insurance. Why would you live in Baltimore when you can live 5 minutes outside if the city line and save thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in car and home insurance, income taxes, and property taxes? You can still go into Baltimore whenever, but just for picking a better location you can save huge amounts of money that'd pay a college tuition.

I lived in Baltimore for a decade. Crime is just really bad. 300+ murders per year in a city that small matter. At one point when I was living there, Baltimore had 14x higher murders per capita than NYC and even higher murder rate than Chicago. We lived in Charles Village, which was supposed to be a safer part of the city. Yet crime started spiraling out of control. People kept and keep getting robbed at gunpoint in the neighborhood. A gang of youths stabbed a guy simply sitting on a park bench while reading. So many home break-ins and invasions. Cars constantly broken into.

Baltimore residents have a skewed perspective. When your baseline for crime is Baltimore, you'll think neighborhoods like Canton, CV, Hamden, Roland Park are fine, yet they still have very high levels of crime. There is a reason. Baltimore is cheap, so many homes are for sale in Baltimore, and nothing appreciates. Everyone leaves the city when they get older and have kids. It is rare in Baltimore to see many people pushing around strollers and having school aged kids because everyone leaves when they start families when taxes, schools, and safety start to matter.

Anonymous wrote:I lived in Baltimore and still work in Baltimore but now live in DC. I would never move back to Baltimore. The city is struggling and I doubt you will get much appreciation for your house. Last year a friend tried to sell her townhouse in Canton and she could not sell it. It was on the market for months. The crime and schools aren't going to improve anytime soon, which will keep home values low. 10 years ago I really thought Baltimore was on an upward trajectory but I don't anymore.

If you want to leave DC, look into buying a house in Howard County. The schools and commute would be better and you can easily drive into either Baltimore or DC.

It’s weird to cite crime as a reason to stay in DC when DC had more murders this year than any year since 2005 on December 3. The murder rate has been trending upward for the last few years, so this doesn’t seem to be slowing down.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/12/03/dcs-murder-rate-reaches-its-highest-number-in-15-years/

Also look into Hereford. Beautiful area, good public schools and an easy commute into Baltimore. I would go in a minute.

I lived in Baltimore and still work in Baltimore but now live in DC. I would never move back to Baltimore. The city is struggling and I doubt you will get much appreciation for your house. Last year a friend tried to sell her townhouse in Canton and she could not sell it. It was on the market for months. The crime and schools aren't going to improve anytime soon, which will keep home values low. 10 years ago I really thought Baltimore was on an upward trajectory but I don't anymore.

If you want to leave DC, look into buying a house in Howard County. The schools and commute would be better and you can easily drive into either Baltimore or DC.

OP here again. I really appreciate all this insight -- keep it coming! It is a tricky choice to make and it's great hearing all the different perspectives. I feel like DH and I have been talking about this for years (well, technically we have been, though it's only gotten real in 2020) so it's really great to have all these insights.

I definitely think part of our hang up is that we've been in DC for a long time where prices just go up up up and so there was a little bit of shock/surprise to see how much that is not true in Baltimore. It's ironic because the rapid appreciation in DC was the bane of our existence not that long ago when we were buying and could feel ourselves rapidly being priced out of the market (we were extremely lucky to snag our condo when we did, as two years later I think we really would have been priced out). Also, my parents (who live in a totally different part of the country) financed most of their retirement on house appreciation by downsizing as empty nesters and as people who do not make a ton of money, the idea of having a sound real estate investment we could cash in on in 20 years or so is very appealing. Obviously we have retirement savings as well, but I got sold on the idea of real estate as a long term investment vehicle a long time ago and it's hard to make the mental adjustment. But of course, affordability goes hand in hand with flat prices -- that's the trade-off we need to decide if we can take.

Speaking of sports, though, that might be the biggest strike against Baltimore. We hare HUGE, longtime Nationals fans and while we enjoy rooting for the O's as our AL team, we will miss not being able to go to weeknight Nats games in DC a lot.

It's just hard to leave a place you've lived in for a really longtime, even for a city that is just up the road!

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread op. I think what it seems to me from reading these responses and my own experience is that this definitely makes sense if you can find a suburb of baltimore that fits your walkability needs but buying within the city probably doesn’t make sense. So if it was me, I would definitely make this move to one of the closer in suburbs. But I live in Arlington and have surprisingly found it to meet all of my needs after living in Chicago and thinking I would be in the city a long time. I live in a part that is pretty bustling, can definitely walk to a coffee shop, playgrounds, a few restaurants, farmers market etc. It is certainly not the level of walkability choices in restaurants etc as I had in the city, but it meets that need for myself personally. But if you know for yourself that you truly need the city feel than maybe Baltimore isn’t the best fit for long term investment sadly.

There is more to a city than a walk score. Baltimore had its own unique culture, civic spirit and quirky arts scene that cannot be found in Arlington. There are neighborhoods like Hampden that actively support local businesses so much that it is almost impossible for a nondescript chain store to come in and compete. There are traditions like the Miracle on 34th Street up there that are just not happening in a place full of as many transplants and chain stores like Clarendon, for example.

Comparing Arlington to Baltimore because you can walk to places is like comparing Tysons Corner to Soho because they both have upscale shopping.

As someone who lives and likes living in DC, this is true. Baltimore has huge issues that DC doesn't have, but it has so much more culture and sense of community than DC. It's just a much more fun/laid back place. If crime wasn't such an issue, it would be one of the best cities in the country to live in. Pretty big issue though.

And we have the ravens with a beautiful downtown stadium., right next to Camden yards.

Ravens fans may be the worst part of living in Baltimore, OP, don’t let that sway you too much.

This is the arlington poster and back to just be clear I was never trying to compare arlington to baltimore city- woof, definitely not for a second do i think they are comparable in terms of culture, history, diversity etc. In fact was never trying to compare the two at all as even remotely similar. I was only commenting on the fact that op seems hesitant to buy property in baltimore city (where said culture exists) due to the other issues that others mentioned and most from baltimore seemed to agree were a concern for property values. So was just saying if that’s a concern for op, and op wants a city life, then maybe it’s not a fit. But if op really wants the lower cost of living and in my opinion better culture/laid back nature of the baltimore area, if she were open to a suburb that has some of the walkability she is looking for then maybe she could find a fit. That’s all. I guess I’m not phrasing it very clearly but anyway, I think Baltimore is really cool and agree wholeheartedly ithas way, way more personality than arlington! Dont think you have to convince anyone there.

NP—for what it’s worth, I didn’t take your message as comparing the two at all.

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread op. I think what it seems to me from reading these responses and my own experience is that this definitely makes sense if you can find a suburb of baltimore that fits your walkability needs but buying within the city probably doesn’t make sense. So if it was me, I would definitely make this move to one of the closer in suburbs. But I live in Arlington and have surprisingly found it to meet all of my needs after living in Chicago and thinking I would be in the city a long time. I live in a part that is pretty bustling, can definitely walk to a coffee shop, playgrounds, a few restaurants, farmers market etc. It is certainly not the level of walkability choices in restaurants etc as I had in the city, but it meets that need for myself personally. But if you know for yourself that you truly need the city feel than maybe Baltimore isn’t the best fit for long term investment sadly.

There is more to a city than a walk score. Baltimore had its own unique culture, civic spirit and quirky arts scene that cannot be found in Arlington. There are neighborhoods like Hampden that actively support local businesses so much that it is almost impossible for a nondescript chain store to come in and compete. There are traditions like the Miracle on 34th Street up there that are just not happening in a place full of as many transplants and chain stores like Clarendon, for example.

Comparing Arlington to Baltimore because you can walk to places is like comparing Tysons Corner to Soho because they both have upscale shopping.

As someone who lives and likes living in DC, this is true. Baltimore has huge issues that DC doesn't have, but it has so much more culture and sense of community than DC. It's just a much more fun/laid back place. If crime wasn't such an issue, it would be one of the best cities in the country to live in. Pretty big issue though.

And we have the ravens with a beautiful downtown stadium., right next to Camden yards.

Ravens fans may be the worst part of living in Baltimore, OP, don’t let that sway you too much.

This is the arlington poster and back to just be clear I was never trying to compare arlington to baltimore city- woof, definitely not for a second do i think they are comparable in terms of culture, history, diversity etc. In fact was never trying to compare the two at all as even remotely similar. I was only commenting on the fact that op seems hesitant to buy property in baltimore city (where said culture exists) due to the other issues that others mentioned and most from baltimore seemed to agree were a concern for property values. So was just saying if that’s a concern for op, and op wants a city life, then maybe it’s not a fit. But if op really wants the lower cost of living and in my opinion better culture/laid back nature of the baltimore area, if she were open to a suburb that has some of the walkability she is looking for then maybe she could find a fit. That’s all. I guess I’m not phrasing it very clearly but anyway, I think Baltimore is really cool and agree wholeheartedly ithas way, way more personality than arlington! Dont think you have to convince anyone there.

No one who lives in Baltimore can promise op dc style appreciation in the short term. I’m not even sure dc can promise continued appreciation at the same rate. Are people really going to pay much more than 1.25 million for 2000 square feet or less?

Baltimore real estate prices tripled in Northern Baltimore and close in suburbs over the past 25 years, but it has taken awhile to get back to 2008 highs. Baltimore certainly has more room for appreciation compared to dc. The Baltimore suburbs are not appreciating faster than the city, so no reason for op to move to the suburbs unless she wants the certainty of a good high school (the best public high schools in the city all require an application process) or to pay less in property tax.

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread op. I think what it seems to me from reading these responses and my own experience is that this definitely makes sense if you can find a suburb of baltimore that fits your walkability needs but buying within the city probably doesn’t make sense. So if it was me, I would definitely make this move to one of the closer in suburbs. But I live in Arlington and have surprisingly found it to meet all of my needs after living in Chicago and thinking I would be in the city a long time. I live in a part that is pretty bustling, can definitely walk to a coffee shop, playgrounds, a few restaurants, farmers market etc. It is certainly not the level of walkability choices in restaurants etc as I had in the city, but it meets that need for myself personally. But if you know for yourself that you truly need the city feel than maybe Baltimore isn’t the best fit for long term investment sadly.

There is more to a city than a walk score. Baltimore had its own unique culture, civic spirit and quirky arts scene that cannot be found in Arlington. There are neighborhoods like Hampden that actively support local businesses so much that it is almost impossible for a nondescript chain store to come in and compete. There are traditions like the Miracle on 34th Street up there that are just not happening in a place full of as many transplants and chain stores like Clarendon, for example.

Comparing Arlington to Baltimore because you can walk to places is like comparing Tysons Corner to Soho because they both have upscale shopping.

As someone who lives and likes living in DC, this is true. Baltimore has huge issues that DC doesn't have, but it has so much more culture and sense of community than DC. It's just a much more fun/laid back place. If crime wasn't such an issue, it would be one of the best cities in the country to live in. Pretty big issue though.

And we have the ravens with a beautiful downtown stadium., right next to Camden yards.

Ravens fans may be the worst part of living in Baltimore, OP, don’t let that sway you too much.

This is the arlington poster and back to just be clear I was never trying to compare arlington to baltimore city- woof, definitely not for a second do i think they are comparable in terms of culture, history, diversity etc. In fact was never trying to compare the two at all as even remotely similar. I was only commenting on the fact that op seems hesitant to buy property in baltimore city (where said culture exists) due to the other issues that others mentioned and most from baltimore seemed to agree were a concern for property values. So was just saying if that’s a concern for op, and op wants a city life, then maybe it’s not a fit. But if op really wants the lower cost of living and in my opinion better culture/laid back nature of the baltimore area, if she were open to a suburb that has some of the walkability she is looking for then maybe she could find a fit. That’s all. I guess I’m not phrasing it very clearly but anyway, I think Baltimore is really cool and agree wholeheartedly ithas way, way more personality than arlington! Dont think you have to convince anyone there.

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread op. I think what it seems to me from reading these responses and my own experience is that this definitely makes sense if you can find a suburb of baltimore that fits your walkability needs but buying within the city probably doesn’t make sense. So if it was me, I would definitely make this move to one of the closer in suburbs. But I live in Arlington and have surprisingly found it to meet all of my needs after living in Chicago and thinking I would be in the city a long time. I live in a part that is pretty bustling, can definitely walk to a coffee shop, playgrounds, a few restaurants, farmers market etc. It is certainly not the level of walkability choices in restaurants etc as I had in the city, but it meets that need for myself personally. But if you know for yourself that you truly need the city feel than maybe Baltimore isn’t the best fit for long term investment sadly.

There is more to a city than a walk score. Baltimore had its own unique culture, civic spirit and quirky arts scene that cannot be found in Arlington. There are neighborhoods like Hampden that actively support local businesses so much that it is almost impossible for a nondescript chain store to come in and compete. There are traditions like the Miracle on 34th Street up there that are just not happening in a place full of as many transplants and chain stores like Clarendon, for example.

Comparing Arlington to Baltimore because you can walk to places is like comparing Tysons Corner to Soho because they both have upscale shopping.

As someone who lives and likes living in DC, this is true. Baltimore has huge issues that DC doesn't have, but it has so much more culture and sense of community than DC. It's just a much more fun/laid back place. If crime wasn't such an issue, it would be one of the best cities in the country to live in. Pretty big issue though.

And we have the ravens with a beautiful downtown stadium., right next to Camden yards.

Ravens fans may be the worst part of living in Baltimore, OP, don’t let that sway you too much.

Anonymous wrote:Look, the reason it is affordable is because there ISN’T wild appreciation like DC. Buy a place you want to live in, for a price you want to pay. Make something else your primary investment vehicle, and treat your house as a place to live.

*Hasn't been wild appreciation.

It's weird, but reading this board you would think that current trends continue indefinitely...does no one remember when the land that went with the royal palace in Tokyo was worth more than all the land in California?