Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One red flag is her personality. Any Type A perfectionist who has to have things done her way or it’s wrong is in for a long haul in this space.

Pay attention bitter man troll. This is a thread about people like you. Ladies, another red flag. Defensive and completely unable to accept fault; a lack of introspection and a horrible relationship with either parent. If they don’t do the work they will kick the can to everyone before actually picking it up and putting it in the damn trash can.

Why are you here?!?! Go away. You’re creeping me out, not interested today. Send the damn child support!

Pay attention, bitter woman troll. This is a comment about people like you. Folks, another red flag. Histrionic, shrill and misandrist; a lack of introspection and the possibility that women contribute to negative relationship dynamics. If they don’t do the work they will just blame, blame, and complain.

DP but this is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've seen on here in weeks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One red flag is her personality. Any Type A perfectionist who has to have things done her way or it’s wrong is in for a long haul in this space.

Pay attention bitter man troll. This is a thread about people like you. Ladies, another red flag. Defensive and completely unable to accept fault; a lack of introspection and a horrible relationship with either parent. If they don’t do the work they will kick the can to everyone before actually picking it up and putting it in the damn trash can.

Why are you here?!?! Go away. You’re creeping me out, not interested today. Send the damn child support!

Pay attention, bitter woman troll. This is a comment about people like you. Folks, another red flag. Histrionic, shrill and misandrist; a lack of introspection and the possibility that women contribute to negative relationship dynamics. If they don’t do the work they will just blame, blame, and complain.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would add that the woman has to be willing to be in an equal partnership. That means -- your husband is not always going to do things the way you do or prefer. If you are always criticizing or "making suggestions to improve" whatever it is: bathing the kids, helping with homework, folding laundry -- then he will stop doing it and suddenly you are overwhelmed with having to do everything! My mother gave me this advice and it has served me well. I've been married 35 years and we happily raised two kids together.

So true.

My mom spent her entire married life complaining about my dad's lack of domestic skills and participation. Yet every time he tried to step up, she nit picked him to death. It's her way or the highway. I'm sure there was some truth to her complaints, but her micro managing and criticism made her own life much harder than it needed to be.

When we moved in together it used to drive me crazy that my then-boyfriend was loading the dishwasher wrong, and it was certainly driving him crazy when I corrected him. We settled on a rule that has worked beautifully through the years, including after adding a baby: when one person is working we're both working. So he might be loading the dishwasher differently than I would, but I don't notice because I'm doing laundry. Or he puts the baby to bed and I clean the kitchen and living room until he comes down.

If one of us is just incredibly bushed or sick or something, we'll say "I need to go lay down/take a bath/play video games for a while" and that's fine, but as a baseline we have the same number of free time because we don't ever have one person watching TV or messing around on their phone while the other one is vacuuming. It's become second nature and even though the intent was not to avoid the Big Talk After Kids, it is the perfect set up for not letting the addition of kids ruin the balance. Now we both have less free time, but still the same amount.

Anonymous wrote:I would add that the woman has to be willing to be in an equal partnership. That means -- your husband is not always going to do things the way you do or prefer. If you are always criticizing or "making suggestions to improve" whatever it is: bathing the kids, helping with homework, folding laundry -- then he will stop doing it and suddenly you are overwhelmed with having to do everything! My mother gave me this advice and it has served me well. I've been married 35 years and we happily raised two kids together.

So true.

My mom spent her entire married life complaining about my dad's lack of domestic skills and participation. Yet every time he tried to step up, she nit picked him to death. It's her way or the highway. I'm sure there was some truth to her complaints, but her micro managing and criticism made her own life much harder than it needed to be.

Anonymous wrote:I’m going to get flamed for this, but I think the DW plays a bigger role than the DH in ensuring equality. Of course there are exceptions. This doesn’t apply to a man who is 40 and having his mom do his laundry. Yes, the DH having had a working mom probably helps.

Here are some helpful tips to make sure you’re in a partnership and not a DW who works and is also responsible for everything at home.

1. Don’t have kids with a man who won’t take parental leave or said he can’t. If he can’t or won’t then he is saying loud and clear that children are 100% your responsibility.

2. Leave the house when you have a newborn. If you breastfeed, then pump. Don’t provide your DH with instructions besides that there is pumped milk and when you last fed the baby. Go and see a friend, get a haircut, manicure etc.

3. When you have an older baby, go away for the weekend. Don’t leave instructions.

4. For the love of god, return to work. If you quit your job, you’re signing up for everything at home. You will be an unpaid cook, admin, maid, nanny etc

5. Sit down with your DH and figure out who will do what. Make a list of everything you need to do. Doctors appointments, school forms, scheduling childcare etc. Assign someone to each item. Make it clear that this is so you can return to work and continue earning money.

6. When you’re wedding planning, don’t take over. Tread carefully. If you do 100%, then this may continue during your marriage.

7. Don’t buy presents for in-laws or take on the responsibility of remembering birthdays, holidays etc. Don’t plan anything the first holiday season. The turkey doesn’t just show up on the table. You may end up facing some consequences for not taking over the holidays, but it will pay off in the long term.

8. The first time you leave the house with your newborn and Dh, don’t bring diapers. Don’t bring anything. Act surprised when you need to change the diaper and there isn’t one. Ask your DH where the diaper is. Wait until he volunteers to go back home or that you need to return home as a family. Next time he won’t assume you bring the diapers. If so, then keep repeating this. He will eventually get it.

9. Don’t automatically make dinner or buy groceries when you move in together. Don’t buy any groceries. Wait until he understands this is not your responsibility.

Most DWs I know who do everything at home have made countless decisions that resulted in this. Since I have a true partner, it’s easy to spot these little things these women have done that has resulted in their DH doing very little at home. Some women want to take on everything at home. That’s ok too. Keep in mind there are many women who don’t want to work and love homemaking.

Signed,
Woman with a DH who does 50%

Some of this is good advice, but some is a sign that you evidently felt that you needed to whip your husband into shape, which is not what OP is asking. She's not saying "how do you force a foot-dragger into equality," she's saying "how can you tell he'll be an equal partner" based on what you saw before marriage/kids.

I didn't do any of this bolded stuff and DH does 50%+ of kid stuff because he's just a doer and I have a more intense job. I wouldn't leave an infant in a dirty diaper on purpose to train a guy like a seal. That said, a lot of this stuff - leaving the house, girls' trip when she was a baby, he planned most of the wedding - just came naturally because he is a good partner. It wasn't a training exercise.

I’m going to get flamed for this, but I think the DW plays a bigger role than the DH in ensuring equality. Of course there are exceptions. This doesn’t apply to a man who is 40 and having his mom do his laundry. Yes, the DH having had a working mom probably helps.

Here are some helpful tips to make sure you’re in a partnership and not a DW who works and is also responsible for everything at home.

1. Don’t have kids with a man who won’t take parental leave or said he can’t. If he can’t or won’t then he is saying loud and clear that children are 100% your responsibility.

2. Leave the house when you have a newborn. If you breastfeed, then pump. Don’t provide your DH with instructions besides that there is pumped milk and when you last fed the baby. Go and see a friend, get a haircut, manicure etc.

3. When you have an older baby, go away for the weekend. Don’t leave instructions.

4. For the love of god, return to work. If you quit your job, you’re signing up for everything at home. You will be an unpaid cook, admin, maid, nanny etc

5. Sit down with your DH and figure out who will do what. Make a list of everything you need to do. Doctors appointments, school forms, scheduling childcare etc. Assign someone to each item. Make it clear that this is so you can return to work and continue earning money.

6. When you’re wedding planning, don’t take over. Tread carefully. If you do 100%, then this may continue during your marriage.

7. Don’t buy presents for in-laws or take on the responsibility of remembering birthdays, holidays etc. Don’t plan anything the first holiday season. The turkey doesn’t just show up on the table. You may end up facing some consequences for not taking over the holidays, but it will pay off in the long term.

8. The first time you leave the house with your newborn and Dh, don’t bring diapers. Don’t bring anything. Act surprised when you need to change the diaper and there isn’t one. Ask your DH where the diaper is. Wait until he volunteers to go back home or that you need to return home as a family. Next time he won’t assume you bring the diapers. If so, then keep repeating this. He will eventually get it.

9. Don’t automatically make dinner or buy groceries when you move in together. Don’t buy any groceries. Wait until he understands this is not your responsibility.

Most DWs I know who do everything at home have made countless decisions that resulted in this. Since I have a true partner, it’s easy to spot these little things these women have done that has resulted in their DH doing very little at home. Some women want to take on everything at home. That’s ok too. Keep in mind there are many women who don’t want to work and love homemaking.

Signed,
Woman with a DH who does 50%

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just saw a NYT article about working mothers during the pandemic, saw the thread about household work, and have many working mothers in my workplace. It seems like wives do so much more than husbands on average. I’m not married, and am just in the dating around phase (well, before Covid). If I want to get married to a man that pulls his weight with household and child tasks, what are some green flags? My parents were pretty equitable 60/40, and the only sign I could see as a early sign was that my dad’s mom worked outside the home.

If he makes less than you.

This is really the only answer.

...for a gold digger or someone that prioritized stability and a resources existence (and the negativity that can come with it to a man who identifies and holds no issue with it being the only relevant factor). Some of those relationships work, but it is important to distinguish a marriage that works with it va one that doesn’t. Anna Nicole Smith was happily married, as was her husband. That is an example where your statement is true. They are more outside the norm than the traditional standards and expectations people who marry in 2020+ have.

Anna Nicole Smith married an 80 year old billionaire.

Single male here, I have struggled with OCD my entire life. I f$%#ing love cleaning.

Anonymous wrote:Early in our relationship, my husband cooked and cleaned. That continued when we had kids. I don’t know what the green flags are, but I’d say if you’re marrying someone who devotes a lot of time to hobbies and video games, that’s a tough thing to change when kids are in the picture.

I agree with this one. I know A LOT of women who do way more than their fair share of parenting because their partners have time-consuming hobbies they refuse to give up.

-what are his parents like and what was his upbringing like? Ask probing questions about this 😆.If his dad doesn’t/didn’t do much around the house and/or wasn’t an engaged father then that’s a bad sign. If his mom cleans or cooks for him or makes appointments on his behalf when he’s an adult, that’s a bad sign. If he was never expected to do chores growing up and his mom did everything for him, that’s a bad sign.

-does he know how to cook? Doesn’t have to be anything elaborate but can he at least make eggs, pasta, very simple things? Does he own and know how to use basic kitchen appliances and tools? Does he know where basic items are in a grocery store?

-when with family/friends and food is being prepared/served, does he sit back and wait to be served? Or does he ask what he can do to help?

-does he own a broom/mop/vacuum and does he use them?

-does he know how to do laundry?

-does he keep his place neat and clean? Or is it always a mess?

-does he expect you to be the one in the relationship to make social plans, remember birthdays, shop for gifts or does he think of/take the initiative to do these things himself?

-does he schedule himself visits to the dentist, doctor, etc on his own or does he either never go or need someone to remind him/make the appt for him?

-does he take care of things that need to be fixed around the house without prompting? Either calling a plumber, electrician, handy man, etc or doing the work himself? If he does the work himself, does he actually compete projects around the house or does he leave them half finished for months?

Anonymous wrote:Ooo this is a good one.

1) I'll get flak for this, but - insist on paying your own way for early dates. Any guy whose ego can't handle you paying for your own drinks is not going to be vacuuming regularly.
2) How is his place now? If his place is a pigsty, he either doesn't see dirt or doesn't care. Bad sign. I would say this is much more reliable after age 30 or so.
3) What does he eat? Has he ever offered to cook for you? If he only eats frozen meals and goes out to eat, that's a bad sign. If he cooks ever, even simple things, you've got a better chance of that sticking around (or even improving)
4) Once you're past "the talk" and are in a relationship - there's a couple trial balloons I'd throw out conversationally: "My friend is having a baby and started putting together a registry. God babies need tons of stuff! How would you even know what to put on there?!?" Then just sit quietly. See what he says "Oh, huh. So what do you want to do tomorrow night?" Bad. "Man, yeah, my friend has a baby and there's so much stuff! Half their kitchen is filled with baby stuff now." Good. Basically, if you can engage on any kind of practical baby conversation, without him changing the topic, that's a good sign. Again, more reliable after age 30.
5) Pre-engagement, I'd ask if he plans to take parental leave. If he'd be willing to take a few months and thinks that's a good idea, that's a keeper.

This right here 1000%

Anonymous wrote:How do you know? My DH came from an affluent family with an authoritarian dad, a domestic goddess SAH mom and lots of servants. Very traditional household and no sisters in the home. He was a very loving boyfriend who was there to support me in my dreams. He knew more about cleaning and cooking than me and was pretty domesticated as a single guy. Very clean and methodical, very disciplined.

When we got married, for a long time he did not want kids. And I was cool with that. Now that we have kids, he is all in and the most devoted dad. He is still doing a lot of cooking and I became a SAHM somewhere along the line to spend more time with my kids.

Iranian/Persian?

Look at his parents relationship and is his father really engaged in doing stuff around the house. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That plus can he cook, is his place clean and organized, does he do his own laundry, does he play video games (bad) poker with the boys (bad) ask what you'd like to do in bed (Good).

I agree that it is not that easy to predict. My SO checked all these boxes:

1. Lives alone or with a roommate and the place is not a wreck.
2. Can cook.
3. Doesn't outsource every single thing (wash and fold, for instance) unless he has a crazy 80 hr/week job
4. Maintains good relationships with his family
5. Has close friends of both genders
6. Didn't have a SAHM (they can't help this one, but by observation and studies, it really matters to how they internalize whose "job" it is to handle all the grunt work)

also, worked as a substitute kindergarten teacher and before we had kids always asked to hold friends' and relatives' babies

but still children completely changed the workload and division of labor. He puts in effort around the house, cooks, etc., but would almost always rather play golf or stare at his phone than do anything with the kids. He seems to consider them work more than enjoyable relationships...and maybe since ours are still fairly young (PK, ES) he isn't totally wrong. I do enjoy them more than him so that's his constant excuse.

Most single people have time for work and taking care of personal responsibilities and still have plenty of time for hobbies, social engagements, relaxing, etc.. Kids cut into that "fun" time by a lot.

I think the volunteer work would be an excellent green flag.

How do you know? My DH came from an affluent family with an authoritarian dad, a domestic goddess SAH mom and lots of servants. Very traditional household and no sisters in the home. He was a very loving boyfriend who was there to support me in my dreams. He knew more about cleaning and cooking than me and was pretty domesticated as a single guy. Very clean and methodical, very disciplined.

When we got married, for a long time he did not want kids. And I was cool with that. Now that we have kids, he is all in and the most devoted dad. He is still doing a lot of cooking and I became a SAHM somewhere along the line to spend more time with my kids.