Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never really bought into it. It always just sounded like bullshit to me.

Same!

Same here. Sitting in church on Sunday was just something we did.

Anonymous wrote:Reading about the Catholic Church vs the Reformation movement and learning that a lot of the priests were translating biblical text errantly for hundreds of years and none of their parishioners had a clue.

Then studying current (and still current) news only to see preachers, pastors, and priests being charged with everything from sodomy to pedophilia to assault. If these are the servants of God, why would I want to be associated with them?

Yep. Roman Catholicism is by no means the only offender in the panoply of religions, but especially after the revelations of the past 30 years or so about that church's crimes against children, I honestly don't see how anyone can be a committed Catholic. If God exists, it should seem quite clear by now that this isn't his true church. Or he exists and is okay with these horrific abuses, which would make him no longer worthy of your worship. Or, he doesn't exist.

Anonymous wrote:We're all atheists - I just disbelieve in one more god than you do.

Beat me to it! I was going to post the same remark.

I grew up in a church-going but not especially religious family. For instance, we went every Sunday but I don't remember my parents ever suggesting that we pray together or ever inquiring whether I had prayed. As a kid and teenager I would have said I believed, but I'm not really sure I ever did. For one thing, I could never get that worked up about all the nuances of faith. Like, why was it so critically important that I believe the stuff about the Trinity? ("You see, kids, it's all one God -- you must know there is only one -- but within that one it's really God, and also his Son, and then a separate thing that we wave our hands about and don't quite explain.")

Then as I started to grow up, I just strained against the idea that I was supposed to endlessly praise and proclaim my faith in an all-powerful deity who observed my every move and always would and who, presumably, gave me the very intelligence that I was using to start questioning him. The subservience wasn't my thing, and I also struggled hugely with the idea that my friends who happened to be born to Indian immigrants or the Schwartzes down the street would be condemned to burn while I enjoyed eternal life just because my parents brought me as a babe to the baptismal font.

But most of all, I remember high school football. It was the deep South, and like everyone on the team I was "encouraged" to participate in pep rally and pre-game prayers that we would win. And if I happened to practice enough and develop my skills enough and use my physical abilities to catch a ball in the endzone, I was expected to drop to my knee and thank God that he had decided that I should do so. This more than anything else shook me to my core. Surely if God existed, he didn't care what was happening on a small grass field in Alabama between some teenagers. And if he did, why would he want my team to win in a blowout and the other team to lose? Were they less deserving in the next town over? Did they not pray hard enough? And if you open up that can of worms, the harder questions get tougher. Why did my grandma have to suffer through a debilitating fatal illness while Suzie down the street is so proud that God's grace - prompted by prayer - restored her own grandmother to health?

All that is to say: I started asking questions. And once I started, I wasn't finding answers within religion.

There are times that I wish I could believe. I wish I believed that I would see my dad again, or my grandparents, or that they were able to be "looking down" on my wonderful kids right now. So I get the consolation element. But try as I might, I just...don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never really bought into it. It always just sounded like bullshit to me.

Same!

Fascinating! were either of you from religious families? e.g., went to services/Sunday school regularly? Did either of you tell your parents of your views as children? If so, how did they handle it?

DP, but I fall into the same category.

I'm honestly a little confused by the question. Wouldn't it be better to flip the question around to ask why people became religious? To a Pastafarian, this would be like asking, "Why did you stop believing that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe after drinking heavily?

Atheism or agnosticism seems like the default state. Even if you're told something, you don't really believe it until you have the capacity to make that decision for yourself. That might happen in some sudden revelation, or it might happen slowly as you age. But at some point, it changes from what you've been told to what you believe.

I grew up in a Catholic household. We went to church every Sunday. I went to CCD, which is like Catholic Sunday school, except it was on Wednesdays after school. I distinctly remember telling my CCD teacher on my first day that I didn't need to introduce myself because I wasn't going to be back- my mom said I only needed to go once and I didn't intend to come back. I lost that battle, though, both with the teacher and with my mom. I went through confirmation. I didn't want to, but was basically forced to play along. My mom even called my then-girlfriend to tell her she needed to make sure I made it through confirmation. And I did, but I always said I wouldn't lie to do it. I went through the motions, but never lied when asked a question. It seemed like the priest, church staff, and CCD teachers knew not to ask certain direct questions about beliefs.

So it wasn't that I became agnostic. I just never really became Catholic. And why not? Because no one ever provided evidence, or even a rational explanation, for why I should believe anything they were saying.

As for "Wouldn't it be better to flip the question around to ask why people became religious?" In some cases, yes, but for most people these days, the answer is a given, i.e., "because I was raised in a religion."

It would sort of be like asking "Why do you speak English?" It's because that's what people spoke at home. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but until recently most people were raised in a religion and "supposed" to believe what the religion taught. Their parents thought so and the society thought so. Clearly a lot of people responding here didn't fall into that mode.

In my case, I believed as a child and it slowly fell away as I got older. I admire the people here who realized early on what I figured out slowly and what many don't figure out at all.

Anonymous wrote:for people who "never bought it" even though you were exposed to religion as children, how did you deal with the fact that no religion means no afterlife?

That is, how did you deal with the fact that life is finite; that you would die and that would be the end of it?

It made the life that I do have even more valuable and rich. I can't excuse any nastiness, pettiness, or immorality on my part by telling myself that I'm doing it for the next life. I don't have to wear anyone else's yoke or abide subserviently to anyone else's commands on the grounds that I'll be rewarded "later." And with hearty apologies to my religious friends who I love and respect deeply, I fervently believe that if everyone came around to my view that this earthly life is all we have and will ever have, the world would on balance be better for it because of the self-reflection that it would cause.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never really bought into it. It always just sounded like bullshit to me.

Same!

Fascinating! were either of you from religious families? e.g., went to services/Sunday school regularly? Did either of you tell your parents of your views as children? If so, how did they handle it?

DP, but I fall into the same category.

I'm honestly a little confused by the question. Wouldn't it be better to flip the question around to ask why people became religious? To a Pastafarian, this would be like asking, "Why did you stop believing that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe after drinking heavily?

Atheism or agnosticism seems like the default state. Even if you're told something, you don't really believe it until you have the capacity to make that decision for yourself. That might happen in some sudden revelation, or it might happen slowly as you age. But at some point, it changes from what you've been told to what you believe.

I grew up in a Catholic household. We went to church every Sunday. I went to CCD, which is like Catholic Sunday school, except it was on Wednesdays after school. I distinctly remember telling my CCD teacher on my first day that I didn't need to introduce myself because I wasn't going to be back- my mom said I only needed to go once and I didn't intend to come back. I lost that battle, though, both with the teacher and with my mom. I went through confirmation. I didn't want to, but was basically forced to play along. My mom even called my then-girlfriend to tell her she needed to make sure I made it through confirmation. And I did, but I always said I wouldn't lie to do it. I went through the motions, but never lied when asked a question. It seemed like the priest, church staff, and CCD teachers knew not to ask certain direct questions about beliefs.

So it wasn't that I became agnostic. I just never really became Catholic. And why not? Because no one ever provided evidence, or even a rational explanation, for why I should believe anything they were saying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what drives me away?

-massive hypocrisy

-the ability to justify or write off anything as 'god's will" and absolve oneself of personal responsibility

-intolerance

There are some very mild forms of liberal Christianity that don't do any of these things. They focus on social justice, love and tolerance.

You don't need religion for those things, but some religions do emphasize them and don't deal in fear or divine retribution the way Catholicism can or fundamentalist Christianity does.

I've been to those churches and while I applaud the social justice focus (the one I went to was Unitarian and very focused on BLM and also spoke openly and inclusively of LGBTQ+ issues, which I really appreciate), I still think there are problems with these churches in terms of hierarchies.

The one I went to had several pastors, and I got to know one of them socially, and his family. His wife did something really inappropriate to someone I know -- not just something "unChristian" but also counter to the social justice philosophy of the church. But because he is a pastor and this is his wife, no one is holding her accountable for this behavior. It is disturbing, and almost reminds me of how cults operate. I couldn't believe it -- if anyone else in the congregation had done something like this, they would have been held accountable.

That was the last straw for me. I've basically been agnostic for years but continued to seek out a religious community because I want my kids to feel like they are part of something larger than themselves or our family. But seeing how the values the church espoused -- tolerance, accountability, culture of consent -- could be flouted by some members of the community but not others just drove home for me how many people become church leaders because they want power. It's almost more craven than politicians, because with religious people there is this veneer of morality and goodness.

I'm sure there are decent people who are religious community leaders. But I think it is too dangerous to place that much power in a select group of people. Maybe the Quakers are onto something with their egalitarianism.

We're all atheists - I just disbelieve in one more god than you do.

I went to religious day school through 4th grade and “Sunday school” til I was 13.

Put simply, I didn’t believe it and also saw organized religion as a destructive and negative force in the world ... opiate of the masses, etc.

So I’ve been a Golden Rule kinda guy for many years, small “r” religious beliefs re treating people right, etc,m but zero use for dogma, trappings, manipulation, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what drives me away?

-massive hypocrisy

-the ability to justify or write off anything as 'god's will" and absolve oneself of personal responsibility

-intolerance

There are some very mild forms of liberal Christianity that don't do any of these things. They focus on social justice, love and tolerance.

You don't need religion for those things, but some religions do emphasize them and don't deal in fear or divine retribution the way Catholicism can or fundamentalist Christianity does.

DP. Even those aren't great at accepting young kids who sense that what they've been told doesn't make sense to them. Perhaps the punitive aspect is missing, but the sense of rejection of non-believers is palpable.

Anonymous wrote:what drives me away?

-massive hypocrisy

-the ability to justify or write off anything as 'god's will" and absolve oneself of personal responsibility

-intolerance

There are some very mild forms of liberal Christianity that don't do any of these things. They focus on social justice, love and tolerance.

You don't need religion for those things, but some religions do emphasize them and don't deal in fear or divine retribution the way Catholicism can or fundamentalist Christianity does.

what drives me away?

-massive hypocrisy

-the ability to justify or write off anything as 'god's will" and absolve oneself of personal responsibility

-intolerance

I didn't grow up in a religious household, and since I wasn't surrounded by people proclaiming belief, there was never any peer pressure to believe.

Growing up I was fascinated by mythology (first Greek myths when I was little and then in in large part due to comic books and D&D), and in high school I took a class that combined bible as literature/comparative religion/history, that dissected the various bible stories (and the inconsistencies and conflicts between them) and compared them to earlier myths/stories from other religion. We looked at the way health and societal rules were encoded into religion (esp. the OT and kosher rules) and the political influence of churches. It's hard for any religious text to survive that level of scrutiny.

Lacking any fundamental "faith" or familial/societal pressure to conform, I looked at the evolution of religion as an explanation for mysteries and the way science has pushed the explanation of those mysteries further and further back, and pushed our understanding of the universe/possibly multiverse broader and further to the point where "god" is a somewhat meaningless construct (eg, "god is love," or the almost Force-like "god is the life force of the universe"). See Sagan's discussion of the invisible dragon in the garage.

My concept of "afterlife" is consistent with others who have posted. I don't have any expectation that my consciousness will continue past death or that I will be reunited with loved ones, dogs, ancestors (although I will be very pleasantly surprised if I turn out to be wrong on that front!). I look at the fact that our bodies are made of atoms made in the fires of supernovae and scattered across the universe (as Sagan said, "We are made of star stuff!"). And those atoms will continue to be reused until the end of the universe. My "afterlife" is the effect I have on the lives of others.

I look at the moral constructs associated with the current major religions, and while they can be good guides if actually followed, they have been consistently distorted - frequently in an ends-justifies-the-means manner - to support whatever social values people wanted at the time and to suppress another group as "different." As physicist Stephen Weinberg said, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

I don't feel any need for a religion in my life. But, while my "philosophy" (for lack of a better term) works for me, many individuals take great comfort in their own religions, and having some kind of spiritual belief structure is healthier for some people and the community provided by shared beliefs is helpful. While I'm an atheist, I firmly support the right of anyone to believe what they choose and practice the religion of their choice, mostly on the basis of the Golden Rule and the Wiccan principle of "An it harm none, do as ye will."

I actually remember a long discussion in Catholic school about babies who die before baptism as it was pretty dramatic. I think it was second or third grade! Some of those concepts/claims can be quite difficult for young people to fathom, as they seem patently unfair.

Also the pure logistical problems that even a young mind can see: The Ark, belly of a whale, etc.

That's where my journey out started.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:for people who "never bought it" even though you were exposed to religion as children, how did you deal with the fact that no religion means no afterlife?

That is, how did you deal with the fact that life is finite; that you would die and that would be the end of it?

No religion doesn't mean no afterlife.

We were all dead before we were born.

yes, but before we were born, we didn't know what life was like. Know we know that we will lose it, at some point.

Religious people - some of them, at least -- believe they are going to heaven when they die. It gives them something to look forward to, even if it doesn't work out that way in the end.

But some of them also believe they, and others, could wind up in Hell or Purgatory, sometimes for arbitrary reasons.

Growing up Catholic, one of the most disturbing things I learned was that Catholics believe babies who die before baptism live for eternity in Purgatory. That is super messed up.

I also remember my sister, who became born again in college, explaining that Gandhi went to hell because he didn't accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Can you imagine thinking Gandhi is in Hell being tortured right now?

Oh, but Catholics also believe you can buy your way out of Purgatory if you tithe enough money to the church. Cool cool cool.

Yeah, thinking that we probably just all go back to being dirt after we die sounds pretty good, actually.

I was taught that unbaptized babies went to Limbo - which is not a fiery pit like purgatory(temporary) or hell (permanent) but like a heaven without the presence of god, whatever that means.