Anonymous wrote:But IVF is so different from abortion. Embryos that are not implanted have no chance at survival on their own. They are essentially a mass of cells. Without further medical intervention nothing will grow from them. I can’t see how we would get to the level of extreme that would eliminate IVF

Well then you have not read enough about our new Justice. That is exactly where she wants us headed. Anyone that wants that CULT member on the Supreme Court for a lifetime appointment is an idiot.

She's not qualified.
She's not "Catholic"
She's a cult member
She's not qualified and putting her in a lifetime appointment for single issue voting is insane. Less than 3 years experience. Conservatives are desperate to put a cult member there. UGH>>. No one else would ever get a job like that with so little experience.

Ladies keep supporting her. Next year at this time come on back to this board you will be screaming she has completely destroyed us. She will be Typhoid Mary to women. Are you willing to give your paycheck to your male head of household or the head of your Church??????

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IVF doesn’t HAVE to result in the destruction of embryos, right?

Sure, everyone can be Octomom

She had multiple embryos implanted. Most people don’t.

It is certainly possible to create one and implant one.

Except that each harvest is 25K.

Most people can’t afford to pay that much for each try. There’s also the time and physical toll that each harvest takes on the woman’s body. Most people want to extract as many eggs as possible during each try so they have the best shot of a viable embryo. Sometimes only one or two embryos are normal sometimes it’s eight or ten.

Well, this is all quite obvious, but it doesn't make it right if we're talking about destroying embryos. I mean, let's talk abou some compromise here. I transferred one, two times, both are now teenagers.

You were fortunate, and need to sit down and appreciate your good fortune instead of lecturing others. I’ve had 8 IVFs, two of which were single embryo transfers (in my case, because I was afraid of the risks of multiples). I have transferred 14 embryos. I have one living child.

It’s incredibly self-centered for you to think that your luck somehow represents a compromise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IVF doesn’t HAVE to result in the destruction of embryos, right?

Sure, everyone can be Octomom

This is the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

The catholic church s hopelessly slow and behind in its rate of change in response to scientific advancement. Many catholic churches are chock full of people who are on their own to navigate all these conflicts but many do it successfully.

I wa once a member of the gayest catholic church you have ever seen. Amazing parish. has and still has a thriving soup kitchen that feeds thousands each week.

adn no doubt there were many women in the pews that had terminated pregnancies, used birth control, had IVF procedures, baptized IVF babies, etc, etc,

I agree, but ACB is an out-and-proud hardline literalist when it comes to Church teachings. She joined a whackadoodle handmaid cult because she felt her church was too liberal in applying the faith. She's the one we need to worry about, not a hypothetical random Catholic family in the pews.

Agree and it looks like she will be confirmed. I dont think she will change the views of the millions of catholics that disapprove of that path. In her own parish there are probably members that have terminated pregnancies or had iVF or were conceived via IVF even at this poi

Even if row is overturned, pregnancies will be terminated a they always have been and will be.

The solution is in state legislatures to legislate protection of reproductive rights.

that solution won’t last long once there is a federal anti-abortion law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

The catholic church s hopelessly slow and behind in its rate of change in response to scientific advancement. Many catholic churches are chock full of people who are on their own to navigate all these conflicts but many do it successfully.

I wa once a member of the gayest catholic church you have ever seen. Amazing parish. has and still has a thriving soup kitchen that feeds thousands each week.

adn no doubt there were many women in the pews that had terminated pregnancies, used birth control, had IVF procedures, baptized IVF babies, etc, etc,

I agree, but ACB is an out-and-proud hardline literalist when it comes to Church teachings. She joined a whackadoodle handmaid cult because she felt her church was too liberal in applying the faith. She's the one we need to worry about, not a hypothetical random Catholic family in the pews.

Agree and it looks like she will be confirmed. I dont think she will change the views of the millions of catholics that disapprove of that path. In her own parish there are probably members that have terminated pregnancies or had iVF or were conceived via IVF even at this poi

Even if row is overturned, pregnancies will be terminated a they always have been and will be.

The solution is in state legislatures to legislate protection of reproductive rights.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

People really need to realize this! You only have to look at countries with conservative Catholic leaders. IVF was banned in Costa Rica from 2000 to 2017. Catholicism is the official state religion. My friend had to come to the US to get iVF.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

The catholic church s hopelessly slow and behind in its rate of change in response to scientific advancement. Many catholic churches are chock full of people who are on their own to navigate all these conflicts but many do it successfully.

I wa once a member of the gayest catholic church you have ever seen. Amazing parish. has and still has a thriving soup kitchen that feeds thousands each week.

adn no doubt there were many women in the pews that had terminated pregnancies, used birth control, had IVF procedures, baptized IVF babies, etc, etc,

I agree, but ACB is an out-and-proud hardline literalist when it comes to Church teachings. She joined a whackadoodle handmaid cult because she felt her church was too liberal in applying the faith. She's the one we need to worry about, not a hypothetical random Catholic family in the pews.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

The catholic church s hopelessly slow and behind in its rate of change in response to scientific advancement. Many catholic churches are chock full of people who are on their own to navigate all these conflicts but many do it successfully.

I wa once a member of the gayest catholic church you have ever seen. Amazing parish. has and still has a thriving soup kitchen that feeds thousands each week.

adn no doubt there were many women in the pews that had terminated pregnancies, used birth control, had IVF procedures, baptized IVF babies, etc, etc,

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IVF doesn’t HAVE to result in the destruction of embryos, right?

Sure, everyone can be Octomom

Or just retrieve and fertilize many fewer eggs during the process. I am an IVF mom and I can't tell you how pained I am by the thought of the destroyed embryos. I actually have no idea what happened to them, I just left them frozen and I assume the lab eventually destroyed them or used for research. It's hard for me to think about.

Harder than having multiples would have been, because that’s the alternative. Or maybe pay poor women to have and raise them?

With IVF you’re already paying poor women to sell you their eggs, so this isn’t too far fetched...

Are you under the impression that all IVF is done with donor eggs?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Anonymous wrote:Life starts at implantation, problem solved

No just convince major religions to agree

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

What about the low grade embryos- those are life according to the church. Do they really think some woman was desperate enough to have them implanted? Or is donating just something religious people do so that they have a clean conscious knowing that the donations will likely be destroyed?

Life starts at implantation, problem solved

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, 06:21, you are completely wrong - under ACB's views, life begins at conception and exists "from fertilization until death." They believe that IVF that results in the creation and eventual destruction of extra embryos destroys life and is tantamount to murder. This is in line with some Catholics' views (including my MIL's) but is not talked about because IVF is much more popular than abortion. ACB has supported a group that is on record advocating criminalizing the destruction of fertilized embryos.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/01/amy-coney-barrett-supported-group-fertilization

I know Catholic couples that have done IVF. They either used all their embryos or donated them to other women. That way none were destroyed.

Individual Catholics go against the Church's teachings all the time. I know many, many Catholics who have had abortions. That's really neither here nor there. ACB using the Church's teachings to shape US law is not going to be impacted by the behavior of random laypeople.

Any use of IVF, even if no embryos are destroyed, is against the teachings of the Catholic Church: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology

Anonymous wrote:But IVF is so different from abortion. Embryos that are not implanted have no chance at survival on their own. They are essentially a mass of cells. Without further medical intervention nothing will grow from them. I can’t see how we would get to the level of extreme that would eliminate IVF

because Catholics can create a doctrine that twists the facts to the outcome they want, and then they will claim it’s the only possible moral conclusion.

and because Evangelicals just cry about the bayyyybeees and will chose any policy interpretation thay allows them to control women and call other people sinful (but will still privately justify IVF for themselves)

and because the GOP will turn IVF embryos into a culture war to drum up electoral support, regardless of the actual issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IVF doesn’t HAVE to result in the destruction of embryos, right?

Sure, everyone can be Octomom

She had multiple embryos implanted. Most people don’t.

It is certainly possible to create one and implant one.

Except that each harvest is 25K.

Most people can’t afford to pay that much for each try. There’s also the time and physical toll that each harvest takes on the woman’s body. Most people want to extract as many eggs as possible during each try so they have the best shot of a viable embryo. Sometimes only one or two embryos are normal sometimes it’s eight or ten.

But you can extract 25 and only fertilize 1.

I can’t buy just one egg. I have to buy a dozen. But if I am going to eat just 1 or 2 eggs, I don’t cook all 12 and throw 10-11 away.

Spoken as someone who has absolutely no idea how this actually works. I find that the people with the strongest opinions on the stuff don’t actually understand the facts.

If you have a dozen eggs, depending on the woman’s age anywhere between 20-80% of them are even capable of being fertilized. Say 8 fertilize. Then they still need to develop. You might end up with two that look great, three that arrest entirely, and three that are kind of mediocre. You’re now down to five. It makes sense to try a single embryo transfer if you are young and have high-quality embryos, but that’s not the case for most. Most women transfer multiple embryos, and most women give birth to singletons. You do the math.

The “problem” is that nature throws away the vast majority of eggs AND embryos. Most eggs don’t fertilize, and most fertilized eggs don’t implant. The rates of natural conception are at most 25% per cycle, and for some women the rate is much much lower. Waste is just part of how the system works.

And when you’re doing IVF you have one shot to get this right, so unless you have a staggering amount of money and a staggering tolerance for pain, fertilizing one at a time is foolish.

+1 I attempted 4 IVF cycles. One had to be canceled after many injections and ultrasounds but before egg retrieval because I had one dominant follicle maturing at a faster rate than all the others and the odds of succes were too low to justify going forward. During the course of the 3 cycles I completed, we ended up with 17 embryos. Ten of these embryos were not close enough to being viable that we could even transfer or freeze them; their growth just arrested right away in the petri dish. Two were transferred on day 3 of my first cycle, which did not result in pregnancy. Another 2 were transferred on day 3 of my second cycle, which resulted in a chemical pregnancy. By my 3rd cycle, my RE suggested transferring 3 embryos since the odds of success were so low.That was also a day 3 transfer because our embryos tended to arrest by day 5. Miraculously, that transfer resulted in my now 12 year old fraternal twins. We created 17 embryos, of which only 2 were viable. We never had anything to freeze. We could only cycle that many times because our insurance had unusually generous IVF coverage. We never took any action to terminate a single life, but we had to create 17 “lives” (if you count a 2-7 cell embryo that isn’t capable of developing further as a life) in order to have 2 children who survived long enough to be visible via ultrasound at 7 weeks gestation. That experience solidified my opinion that “life” is more complicated than egg-meets-sperm.