The cogat Verbal is poorly designed.
Kids can’t tell what the pictures are supposed to
represent. I think it’s impossible to test verbal ability while also designing a test for non-readers to be read aloud in a group setting.

Is anyone else disturbed that GBRS is so much more important than test scores, especially since GBRS is something that FCPS just made up and varies widely by school and teacher.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

When adjusted for test scores, an AA kid is more than 5 times more likely to be selected than a white or Asian kid with the same stats.

Now that is a disturbing stat.

If you want the full context, it's the first paragraph on page 27

The full context is that the system has been heavily rigged in favor of URM and they still end up being underrepresented. Do we need to rig the system further or should we do something different? Since when does Equality mean equal outcome in this country?

Thanks for the info. I understand trying to level the playing field, but lowering the standard based on race isn't going to solve any problems. These opportunities are finite, and you are denying an opportunity to a more qualified student because of their race. 5x more likely is just insane. It's like they never learn. I would love for these kids to get more help early on that would make them more competitive.

It is 5 times more likely based on tests scores and GRBS scores, which are NOT impartial. The report flat out states that. When you look at NNAT scores only it is only around 1.5 times more likely. And if you look there are white kids who have scored a 70 on the NNAT and still have gotten admitted while the lowest AA NNAT score is like 86 who has gotten admitted.

You are cherry picking the data to support your view. It's obvious to everyone that Fairfax is willing to lower standards for AA students in the name of diversity. This is nothing new and it is racist, just not racist against URMs, so nobody cares.

When students dont do well, they always have an excuse. Remember how the SAT used to be culturally biased? Lol ok, only to people who bombed it. Other excuses are things like test prep, but that isn't something that only impacts AA kids.

I’m actually not surprised that the mean V score for admitted students is quite low. My DC scored a 119 on Verbal and scored in the 130’s in her Q and NV. She is a very strong writer, has an excellent vocabulary and her DRA is 38. She did mention during the Cogat testing days that she had to do a test with weird pictures and was confused about what they were. She also mentioned the teacher would state the questions and she prefers reading the questions on her own. Later on I found out that the section was the verbal one. Of all the sections, I think Cogat verbal is the least correlative of intelligence and maybe the selection committee realizes this?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

When adjusted for test scores, an AA kid is more than 5 times more likely to be selected than a white or Asian kid with the same stats.

Now that is a disturbing stat.

If you want the full context, it's the first paragraph on page 27

The full context is that the system has been heavily rigged in favor of URM and they still end up being underrepresented. Do we need to rig the system further or should we do something different? Since when does Equality mean equal outcome in this country?

Thanks for the info. I understand trying to level the playing field, but lowering the standard based on race isn't going to solve any problems. These opportunities are finite, and you are denying an opportunity to a more qualified student because of their race. 5x more likely is just insane. It's like they never learn. I would love for these kids to get more help early on that would make them more competitive.

It is 5 times more likely based on tests scores and GRBS scores, which are NOT impartial. The report flat out states that. When you look at NNAT scores only it is only around 1.5 times more likely. And if you look there are white kids who have scored a 70 on the NNAT and still have gotten admitted while the lowest AA NNAT score is like 86 who has gotten admitted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

When adjusted for test scores, an AA kid is more than 5 times more likely to be selected than a white or Asian kid with the same stats.

Now that is a disturbing stat.

If you want the full context, it's the first paragraph on page 27

The full context is that the system has been heavily rigged in favor of URM and they still end up being underrepresented. Do we need to rig the system further or should we do something different? Since when does Equality mean equal outcome in this country?

Thanks for the info. I understand trying to level the playing field, but lowering the standard based on race isn't going to solve any problems. These opportunities are finite, and you are denying an opportunity to a more qualified student because of their race. 5x more likely is just insane. It's like they never learn. I would love for these kids to get more help early on that would make them more competitive.

At least we now know that GBRS is much more important than any test scores. It explains some of the admissions inconsistencies, although we still don’t know why some kids with both the high test scores and high GBRS are rejected.

^^ here lol sorry

Anonymous wrote:So where are all the parents of lower-scoring admits and why aren’t they posting here?

I’m hear but don’t feel like hearing from the mean people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:GBRS is the most important factor. Then CogAT Q. Median CogAT V score for admitted kids is around 119.

This is interesting given common wisdom on DCUM, which suggests that kids must score at least in the upper 120s to have a real shot at admission. I'd bet the DCUM advice is pretty accurate for wealthy schools (representing the vast majority of DCUM posters) but substantially less so for higher-FARMs schools. For example, a student who scores a 115 on the CogAT verbal in a high-FARMs school where the average CogAT verbal score is only 95, arguably has a much greater need for differentiation than a student who scores 115 in a wealthy school where the average is 110.

Putting the whole race discussion aside, I found this to be the most interesting part of the report, particularly when you consider that the bulk of the admissions are not minorities. They can't pull a median down like this folks. Basic stats.

It was surprising to me, as well. Conventional dcum wisdom is that Verbal is the most important, Q is the middle, and NV is relatively unimportant. Admitted stats show that Q scores have the highest mean, with NV not too far behind and Verbal far in the rear.

Not for nothing but I always thought it was Q, because I thought they wanted to know the kid could definitely hang with the accelerated math.

So where are all the parents of lower-scoring admits and why aren’t they posting here?

These are also the mean test scores after widespread prepping. The natural mean scores would be even lower. I’m not that surprised though. A 119 verbal is around the 90th percentile. 16% of 3rd graders are admitted. Despite people’s beliefs to the contrary, FCPS is not that much more gifted than anywhere else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:GBRS is the most important factor. Then CogAT Q. Median CogAT V score for admitted kids is around 119.

This is interesting given common wisdom on DCUM, which suggests that kids must score at least in the upper 120s to have a real shot at admission. I'd bet the DCUM advice is pretty accurate for wealthy schools (representing the vast majority of DCUM posters) but substantially less so for higher-FARMs schools. For example, a student who scores a 115 on the CogAT verbal in a high-FARMs school where the average CogAT verbal score is only 95, arguably has a much greater need for differentiation than a student who scores 115 in a wealthy school where the average is 110.

Putting the whole race discussion aside, I found this to be the most interesting part of the report, particularly when you consider that the bulk of the admissions are not minorities. They can't pull a median down like this folks. Basic stats.

Right. So half of admitted AAP students score below 119 V. The median Q score is only a few points higher. I’ll wager those scores are substantially lower than anyone here would have thought. There are DCUM kids who score substantially higher than that and still don’t get in. What’s the explanation?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:GBRS is the most important factor. Then CogAT Q. Median CogAT V score for admitted kids is around 119.

This is interesting given common wisdom on DCUM, which suggests that kids must score at least in the upper 120s to have a real shot at admission. I'd bet the DCUM advice is pretty accurate for wealthy schools (representing the vast majority of DCUM posters) but substantially less so for higher-FARMs schools. For example, a student who scores a 115 on the CogAT verbal in a high-FARMs school where the average CogAT verbal score is only 95, arguably has a much greater need for differentiation than a student who scores 115 in a wealthy school where the average is 110.

Putting the whole race discussion aside, I found this to be the most interesting part of the report, particularly when you consider that the bulk of the admissions are not minorities. They can't pull a median down like this folks. Basic stats.

It was surprising to me, as well. Conventional dcum wisdom is that Verbal is the most important, Q is the middle, and NV is relatively unimportant. Admitted stats show that Q scores have the highest mean, with NV not too far behind and Verbal far in the rear.

What the maker of the test actually said was that even scores were best, but if they were uneven the importance for gifted program success is Q -> V -> NV.

Where did you see this?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:GBRS is the most important factor. Then CogAT Q. Median CogAT V score for admitted kids is around 119.

This is interesting given common wisdom on DCUM, which suggests that kids must score at least in the upper 120s to have a real shot at admission. I'd bet the DCUM advice is pretty accurate for wealthy schools (representing the vast majority of DCUM posters) but substantially less so for higher-FARMs schools. For example, a student who scores a 115 on the CogAT verbal in a high-FARMs school where the average CogAT verbal score is only 95, arguably has a much greater need for differentiation than a student who scores 115 in a wealthy school where the average is 110.

Putting the whole race discussion aside, I found this to be the most interesting part of the report, particularly when you consider that the bulk of the admissions are not minorities. They can't pull a median down like this folks. Basic stats.

It was surprising to me, as well. Conventional dcum wisdom is that Verbal is the most important, Q is the middle, and NV is relatively unimportant. Admitted stats show that Q scores have the highest mean, with NV not too far behind and Verbal far in the rear.

What the maker of the test actually said was that even scores were best, but if they were uneven the importance for gifted program success is Q -> V -> NV.