Anonymous wrote:Had very unpleasant tour at a top ivy. The representative giving the introduction was snobby and off putting and "what can you do for us instead of what can we do for you".....central casting could not have done better. Student guide was fine.

Actually went back a second time because it is a top school and I did not want a poor quality tour to cross it off list unnecessarily. 2nd visit was better .

I think you have to look at the visits as just one piece of the puzzle. Can have a bad experience not really indicative of the school.

Princeton? Definitely got that vibe there

Anonymous wrote:<<I got my phd at Cornell >>

World of difference from being an undergrad. Tier 1 research schools exist to get grants and churn out peer-reviewed papers, that will bring honor (and more grants) to the school. Doctoral students are very much part of achieving those goals. (And this is coming from a tenured professor.)

The previous poster admitted that elite schools may well have amazing education, but they do not offer UNDERGRADUATES the individual attention that SLAC schools do. My DC is publishing her second peer-reviewed paper this summer, as a sophomore at a SLAC. At Cornell, that opportunity would probably go to a grad student.

My DC hopes to attend a Cornell-like grad school, but is VERY content with her choice for an undergrad environment. No one has to be RIGHT in this discussion...different options offer different benefits and disadvantages. Depending upon the student, they can all offer a great education.

+1 At a tier 1 research university the focus is on grad students. Undergrads (and teaching them) is a chore for TT professors (with some exceptions). At SLAC the faculty are delighted to have smart, research-oriented kids to work with. I did a ton of research (and got to go to conferences and publish) at my tier 3 SLAC, and those same faculty helped me enormously in applying to graduate school. At the tier 1 university where I got my PhD, the faculty "had" to teach some undergrads, but definitely preferred graduate students.

PP 12:16 that's why I'm even posting because of COVID I realize that things are probably chaotic and some schools (every other school my DD toured virtually) seemed to have their act together. This one stuck out. We booked months in advance for a junior visit and we would have understood if they needed to reschedule. Unfortunately, it's hard whether fair or not to make a good next impression after a bad (first, second and third) one.

I appreciate the insider information from staff/students about not judging a undergraduate school based on staff. Unfortunately for us, it's something hard to overlook as we do not have any experience with the school other than what we've read.

We originally like the school because it is closer than most of the other colleges (well mom does at least) and its stellar reputation in her field of choice. However, I'm thinking it might be better to expand our search to schools further away- which I don't like particularly in this crazy COVID-19 climate. If safety is her top choice after the search- she can go there. The safety is driving distance and everyone I know who has attended loves it.

Both my kids had negative reactions to schools that they liked on paper. And sometimes more positive reactions than expected. While we tried to separate things like not relating to the tour guide from other aspects of the school, sometimes you have to go with gut reactions. Part of this process is to narrow the list and OP it sounds like your DD has knocked a school off the list. Even if it's not for a rational reason (bad virtual tour), just move on.

OP, a few pp's were spot on about the focus on incoming freshman amidst the chaos. Imagine the parents who are relentlessly calling with questions that can easily found on the school's website. Imagine the number of calls regarding deferral, housing and on and on. Then factor in the elitist attitude of Cornell guy who generalized every administrator as unworthy of his caliber.

That being said, you and DD need to self check. Prospective students are juniors who have been given quite a bit of flexibility and empathy during this pandemic. I'm not saying the virtual experience wasn't a disaster, just offer up a bit of grace given the circumstances. Was the tour for prospective junior day? If not and the school didn't offer that type of virtual tour, that's a problem. On the other hand, if you/DD didn't register specifically for the junior preview day virtual tour, than that's on you guys.

My DS is a junior. One of his top schools is what I consider meh. Why? Because it was once a regional private school, it's only a 90 minute drive from where I used to work/play as a college student. But guess what? They've done everything right in my son's eyes. Great communication from his admissions rep, timely emails and they make him feel wanted. Any correspondence he receives is specific to him, his major and interests. We've already toured the school and DS spent a weekend with his cousin, who was a student there (he's off to med school from this "meh" college). DS let me sit in while he did the virtual tour last week. I was blown away. It was seamless! Not only did he chat in multiple rooms with students, but he popped into the admissions chat room. When he messaged a question during Q&A, his admissions rep excitedly shouted his name and asked how we were and answered his question.

Aside from this, they've invested and completed a new biz/CS school, added a new menu of courses and a flexible curriculum with accelerated masters. It an expensive mid size school that offers great merit. We see where our money is going and we approve. I definitely see why my kid has a lot of love for the school and now, I do too. It took me a while, but I'd be very happy if he's accepted and commits. Try to see the 2nd choice school through your DD's eyes. You may be pleasantly surprised. Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our worst experience was at a large elite school (Cornell). Part of it was probably that we were used to the scale of a SLAC (which is what my child was leaning towards). But the contrast was glaring. Cornell's campus was like a city: right down to there being no parking, and what we finally found cost money! (Other schools had sent us parking passes in advance.) All other schools also provided coffee while we waited, while at Cornell there was not so much as an empty chair to sit on in the Admissions office. I think the elite schools feel like they do not need to curry favor because they are always oversubscribed.

Before you blast me, the education may well be excellent. But my DC AND I both appreciated the more curated experience offered by SLAC's (and she found that to continue after she enrolled).

Was this a long time ago? we visited with in the last year. They have a beautiful admissions center with plenty of seating and free parking right outside. Not a coffee drinker...I don't remember if there were refreshments.

Two years ago. Perhaps we were there at a very busy time, like spring break.

Was there a deck overlooking the water? Interesting displays about alums? It did not seem like a new building but maybe it was? I guess that is the point of the thread. For you, the admissions center colored your view of the whole school. For us, it was a nice warm place to wait before out tour. DD will attend in the Fall.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. The weird thing is at the moment that my DD LOVES her safety though that seems so cliché. While the safety has an okay academic reputation, the honors program which she will probably qualify for seems amazing. When we visited, we went on a special tour for kids applying to honors. We both felt like it was a place that she’s really fit in.

She goes where she thinks she will be happy. No question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since my kid's original list was so long, I was happy every time she eliminated a possibilty (especially when I knew it was a school that would probably have rejected her anyway!).

Examples of schools that went downhill, based upon the visit:

Swarthmore
Bates
Colby
Allegheny
Ursinus
Vassar
Connecticut College

Schools that went up in her estimation:

Bowdoin
Mount Holyoke
Juniata
Davidson

Great schools on both lists, so let's not get into a shouting fest. But the kid's view should carry the day in this decision. They are the ones who have to move there, put it on the resume for the rest of their lives, maybe take out loans to attend. Spend hours and years working and socializing there.

I highly encourage visits when we are past the Corona era. Sleep overs really sealed the deal for some also. Best of luck everyone!

So you're basically doing a hit-and-run? I'm curious as to why you thought it was worth naming the schools without providing any context.

Because the poster asked those who had similar experiences to share them. The point is that THIS kid did not like the schools, not that they schools are defective. Stop being so defensive already.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our worst experience was at a large elite school (Cornell). Part of it was probably that we were used to the scale of a SLAC (which is what my child was leaning towards). But the contrast was glaring. Cornell's campus was like a city: right down to there being no parking, and what we finally found cost money! (Other schools had sent us parking passes in advance.) All other schools also provided coffee while we waited, while at Cornell there was not so much as an empty chair to sit on in the Admissions office. I think the elite schools feel like they do not need to curry favor because they are always oversubscribed.

Before you blast me, the education may well be excellent. But my DC AND I both appreciated the more curated experience offered by SLAC's (and she found that to continue after she enrolled).

Was this a long time ago? we visited with in the last year. They have a beautiful admissions center with plenty of seating and free parking right outside. Not a coffee drinker...I don't remember if there were refreshments.

Two years ago. Perhaps we were there at a very busy time, like spring break.

Anonymous wrote:Since my kid's original list was so long, I was happy every time she eliminated a possibilty (especially when I knew it was a school that would probably have rejected her anyway!).

Examples of schools that went downhill, based upon the visit:

Swarthmore
Bates
Colby
Allegheny
Ursinus
Vassar
Connecticut College

Schools that went up in her estimation:

Bowdoin
Mount Holyoke
Juniata
Davidson

Great schools on both lists, so let's not get into a shouting fest. But the kid's view should carry the day in this decision. They are the ones who have to move there, put it on the resume for the rest of their lives, maybe take out loans to attend. Spend hours and years working and socializing there.

I highly encourage visits when we are past the Corona era. Sleep overs really sealed the deal for some also. Best of luck everyone!

So you're basically doing a hit-and-run? I'm curious as to why you thought it was worth naming the schools without providing any context.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is interested in going into a very specific major. Researching schools in advance, we both thought one particular school would be “perfect” for her. Our experience with the school including the virtual visit was so bad that she’s thinking of not applying. On paper the university sounds great and has great reviews.

I’m just trying to reconcile this in my head with I am reading with what we experienced. We tried to make an appointment to visit the University back in Jan (pre-COVID). We started off on the wrong foot because we wanted to meet with an academic advisor in the department my DD will be majoring in. I called and got a very snippy receptionist who told us who to contact. DD contacted and didn’t hear back for a week. DD sent a follow up message requesting a meeting. Person setting up meeting with academic advisor made DD feel like she was impatient. FWIW- all the other schools she set up meetings with got back with her Within 24 to 48 hours. Due to COVID visit was understandably cancelled. They offered a virtual tour. It was horrible. The AV was poor, they had technical difficulties and we were unimpressed with the admission rep. We met with the academic advisor later and she cut of off and was downright rude. My daughter was in tears after the virtual visit.

I’m sure if I posted the name of the school people here would say that’s an amazing school For the major- yet our experience was anything but. The school went from being a top choice for DD to I don’t think I should apply.

I am just wondering if others had similar experiences with colleges letting them down pre-admissions but applied anyway and went. My thought is if they can’t treat DD well when she’s a prospective student, why should I think they will treat her any differently if she were to be accepted?

As a tenured faculty member, I can tell you that universities are big places with lots of employees. I've barely even known the admin people who do work for ME, let alone those who do work for students. I couldn't name a single person in the academic advising office. Admissions rep? This is probably somebody who otherwise would be an insurance salesman. There can be a huge disconnect between the quality of classes and extracurricular activities that make up a "program" or "major" than two nobody administrators. Public or Private, universities are large bureaucracies. COVID aside (which might explain part of this), there are some wonderful people and there are people who should not be employed in any job. This was true even at an ivy league university I worked at. The campus experience is defined by interactions with 100 different people before your child graduates. I would be mortified to know that I put all this effort into designing courses that are excellently reviewed only to have it ruined by some incompetent advisor or admissions rep. I would just look at reviews or talk to students who went through the programs before you make any decision. That would be wayyyyyy more reliable than your brief experience with a very small sample (almost doesn't deserve to be called a sample) of low level grunt employees. Finally, don't forget that most "academic advisors" job is literally to look down a pre-printed list of courses that satisfy requirements and tell your student, "Durrrrr you can take A, B, or C." You might as well make a university decision based on how helpful the barista was at the campus starbucks.

Holy crap you come off as a huge jerk in this post, can you hear yourself?

NP here —no, s/he did not “come off as a huge jerk” at all. Instead, it was nice of that person to write such a detailed and thoughtful post

This poster is dead on. Understand Universities can be huge bureaucracies and many mid level workers don't give a flip about students. Departments are fun like fiefdoms each with their own budget. University workers change jobs around campus to get an extra .50 per hour. University workers "get on" at the University and stay there since the benefits are better than what is paid at local business but these are generally very low pay jobs. Other than professors must
University support workers that I know kind of have "postal worker" attitudes. They hate their jobs. They hate that they have to pay $500 for a parking permit (that does not guarantee you parking), they hate that they can't work remotely like the professors, etc, etc, etc. These workers are generally high school grads who don't give a flip about college students.

Anonymous wrote:Our worst experience was at a large elite school (Cornell). Part of it was probably that we were used to the scale of a SLAC (which is what my child was leaning towards). But the contrast was glaring. Cornell's campus was like a city: right down to there being no parking, and what we finally found cost money! (Other schools had sent us parking passes in advance.) All other schools also provided coffee while we waited, while at Cornell there was not so much as an empty chair to sit on in the Admissions office. I think the elite schools feel like they do not need to curry favor because they are always oversubscribed.

Before you blast me, the education may well be excellent. But my DC AND I both appreciated the more curated experience offered by SLAC's (and she found that to continue after she enrolled).

Was this a long time ago? we visited with in the last year. They have a beautiful admissions center with plenty of seating and free parking right outside. Not a coffee drinker...I don't remember if there were refreshments.

That is why I think culture is important.

At my kid's school, alot of genuine appreciation is afforded staff like the kitchen workers. Not only does this model respect to students, but I think it impacts the vibe at the school. If everyone feel important and appreciated (vs the attitude of that professor who said he barely knows the name of the people who work for HIM, let alone those unworthy types in other admin offices)...it set a tone for the whole community.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a college professor. While this school may indeed be full of deeply unpleasant people, please know that universities are in a bit of a panic. They are trying to finish out the semester, but they don't have access to facilities for proctored exams. Some students want to take the exam later; others want take home exams. All of this requires meetings, rewriting exams, and paperwork.

Students have dying relatives, faculty members are ill or have tiny children at home, and every day , they have to decide what maintenance is necessary (safety checks on boilers, cuttting grass in advance of fire season), and what is not.

Prospective students haven't been forgotten, but they are not at the top of anyone's priority list.

+1000 Sorry

Understand that even on an average day and week there are a lot of academic support workers at universities that really don't give a flip about students and are just putting in time on the job for the paycheck and benefits. The attitude that you encountered is common at the University in my town.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is interested in going into a very specific major. Researching schools in advance, we both thought one particular school would be “perfect” for her. Our experience with the school including the virtual visit was so bad that she’s thinking of not applying. On paper the university sounds great and has great reviews.

I’m just trying to reconcile this in my head with I am reading with what we experienced. We tried to make an appointment to visit the University back in Jan (pre-COVID). We started off on the wrong foot because we wanted to meet with an academic advisor in the department my DD will be majoring in. I called and got a very snippy receptionist who told us who to contact. DD contacted and didn’t hear back for a week. DD sent a follow up message requesting a meeting. Person setting up meeting with academic advisor made DD feel like she was impatient. FWIW- all the other schools she set up meetings with got back with her Within 24 to 48 hours. Due to COVID visit was understandably cancelled. They offered a virtual tour. It was horrible. The AV was poor, they had technical difficulties and we were unimpressed with the admission rep. We met with the academic advisor later and she cut of off and was downright rude. My daughter was in tears after the virtual visit.

I’m sure if I posted the name of the school people here would say that’s an amazing school For the major- yet our experience was anything but. The school went from being a top choice for DD to I don’t think I should apply.

I am just wondering if others had similar experiences with colleges letting them down pre-admissions but applied anyway and went. My thought is if they can’t treat DD well when she’s a prospective student, why should I think they will treat her any differently if she were to be accepted?

As a tenured faculty member, I can tell you that universities are big places with lots of employees. I've barely even known the admin people who do work for ME, let alone those who do work for students. I couldn't name a single person in the academic advising office. Admissions rep? This is probably somebody who otherwise would be an insurance salesman. There can be a huge disconnect between the quality of classes and extracurricular activities that make up a "program" or "major" than two nobody administrators. Public or Private, universities are large bureaucracies. COVID aside (which might explain part of this), there are some wonderful people and there are people who should not be employed in any job. This was true even at an ivy league university I worked at. The campus experience is defined by interactions with 100 different people before your child graduates. I would be mortified to know that I put all this effort into designing courses that are excellently reviewed only to have it ruined by some incompetent advisor or admissions rep. I would just look at reviews or talk to students who went through the programs before you make any decision. That would be wayyyyyy more reliable than your brief experience with a very small sample (almost doesn't deserve to be called a sample) of low level grunt employees. Finally, don't forget that most "academic advisors" job is literally to look down a pre-printed list of courses that satisfy requirements and tell your student, "Durrrrr you can take A, B, or C." You might as well make a university decision based on how helpful the barista was at the campus starbucks.

Holy crap you come off as a huge jerk in this post, can you hear yourself?

NP here —no, s/he did not “come off as a huge jerk” at all. Instead, it was nice of that person to write such a detailed and thoughtful post