Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

Anonymous wrote:Oh my god - going to a T14 does NOT guarantee a big law job. At Georgetown that’s only true for the top third and when the economy is reasonably good. I was in the middle of the class in Gtown in the early 200s after the dot com crash. I had friends who were in top third who could not get biglaw offers. Forty percent of my class was unemployed at graduation. In contrast, the ones that graduated a few years before me, they got biglaw jobs as long as they were top two thirds. During the massive post 2008 r cession, even kids graduating from top five schools were having trouble, though usually those kids are fine.

Anonymous wrote:OP, follow the postings of the "retired big law partner" and think about whether your kid would want to work with people like this and 100x worse.

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Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.

You are too funny. Your “actual data” does not show that PP is wrong when she says that the bottom fifty percent of UVA grads don’t make it into big law. Did you say “virtually everybody” a T14 makes it into biglaw? Your “actual data” show, definitively, that is totally untrue. And if somebody went to a T14 assuming big law would save them and then got stuck with 150K in debt and an 80K starting salary, well, that would be unfortunate.

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Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.

You are too funny. Your “actual data” does not show that PP is wrong when she says that the bottom fifty percent of UVA grads don’t make it into big law. Did you say “virtually everybody” a T14 makes it into biglaw? Your “actual data” show, definitively, that is totally untrue. And if somebody went to a T14 assuming big law would save them and then got stuck with 150K in debt and an 80K starting salary, well, that would be unfortunate.

Anonymous wrote:To PP: A median salary of 190 is not “big law.”

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Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

UVA now ranks between 6 and 8, above Duke. A lot has changed

Not really. UVA now 8 and Duke 10. Meaningless distinction.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Typical snotty lawyer response. I said UVA "now ranks between six and eight". You went when it was ten and then wined about how half the class was worried about getting jobs. That half isn't that worried anymore since UVA Law is doing so well. Duh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

UVA now ranks between 6 and 8, above Duke. A lot has changed

Not really. UVA now 8 and Duke 10. Meaningless distinction.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Typical snotty lawyer response. I said UVA "now ranks between six and eight". You went when it was ten and then wined about how half the class was worried about getting jobs. That half isn't that worried anymore since UVA Law is doing so well. Duh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.