Anonymous wrote:The organizing principle of DCPS schools is neighborhoods, and then we don't preserve that quality? Just slowly expand the boundary to get more kids if there are losses after the lottery.

Look, I grew up as the poor kid with an alcoholic single mom in the shitty apartments despised by the neighbors. Ended up valedictorian at my public high school and then crushed the private school kids at the Ivy League school I attended. I'm happy to include everyone in boundary including housing projects that others might be snobby about. But why not preserve neighborhoods? It is so weird that neighborhoods aren't all in behind their neighborhood schools. Even Northwest is constantly hedging their local schools against fancy private schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, despite only taking families who enter a lottery, and having all the advantages you mentioned, and an easier time kicking kids out, the charter schools you mentioned aren't that different in terms of test scores.

White kids do the best at SH, then DCI, then Latin.

Black kids do the best in DCI, then Latin, then SH.

Latino it's SH, Latin, DCI.

At risk it's SH and DCI, with Latin worse.

In all of these, the differences are somewhat negligible. Clearly if you want language immersion DCI makes sense and if you want to avoid Eastern and don't think your kid will make it into a selective DCPS it feels good to be done through 12th grade with Latin (though in that scenario does your kid really need advanced middle school classes?). But test score wise, there's really no argument that your kid will have a significantly stronger middle school cohort at DCI or Latin than SH. Richer? Whiter? yeah. But academically pretty similar.

What are you taking about? No, it’s not negligible. Look at the PARCC scores from above posters and ELA there is 11-12% difference and math 100%. That’s huge. There are no scores we can see with social studies, science, languages, writing, etc...

You think just comparing ELA works for middle school? I won’t even begin to discuss behavior issues, teachers expectations, curriculum, etc...

Huge difference between the 3.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, when you have favorable school demographics, you essentially have honors classes.

Not having honors classes in "neighborhood schools" is obviously a much bigger problem in this city where most students are low SES than in schools where most are high SES.

Then say what you mean. Objections to SH or EH or Jefferson are not about the lack of honors classes but rather about disadvantaged kids.

This what you're saying, not me.

I was a disadvantaged kid growing up, in NYC. Even so, I had access to stellar GT programs in the public school system from 3rd grade on up. As an adult, I became a government lawyer.

My objections to the way SH, EH and JA work are in fact about the lack of honors classes, particularly for disadvantaged kids who could and would do the work in such classes, with the right supports. The tyranny of low expectations still has a firm grip on DCPS.

Not disputing that. But the course offerings are not any more advanced at Latin. The standard level at BASIS (outside of English) is since they begin covering high school material in 6th in history, science and math, and some are prepared for it and some most definitely are not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, when you have favorable school demographics, you essentially have honors classes.

Not having honors classes in "neighborhood schools" is obviously a much bigger problem in this city where most students are low SES than in schools where most are high SES.

Then say what you mean. Objections to SH or EH or Jefferson are not about the lack of honors classes but rather about disadvantaged kids.

This what you're saying, not me.

I was a disadvantaged kid growing up, in NYC. Even so, I had access to stellar GT programs in the public school system from 3rd grade on up. As an adult, I became a government lawyer.

My objections to the way SH, EH and JA work are in fact about the lack of honors classes, particularly for disadvantaged kids who could and would do the work in such classes, with the right supports. The tyranny of low expectations still has a firm grip on DCPS.

Not disputing that. But the course offerings are not any more advanced at Latin. The standard level at BASIS (outside of English) is since they begin covering high school material in 6th in history, science and math, and some are prepared for it and some most definitely are not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, when you have favorable school demographics, you essentially have honors classes.

Not having honors classes in "neighborhood schools" is obviously a much bigger problem in this city where most students are low SES than in schools where most are high SES.

Then say what you mean. Objections to SH or EH or Jefferson are not about the lack of honors classes but rather about disadvantaged kids.

This what you're saying, not me.

I was a disadvantaged kid growing up, in NYC. Even so, I had access to stellar GT programs in the public school system from 3rd grade on up. As an adult, I became a government lawyer.

My objections to the way SH, EH and JA work are in fact about the lack of honors classes, particularly for disadvantaged kids who could and would do the work in such classes, with the right supports. The tyranny of low expectations still has a firm grip on DCPS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, when you have favorable school demographics, you essentially have honors classes.

Not having honors classes in "neighborhood schools" is obviously a much bigger problem in this city where most students are low SES than in schools where most are high SES.

Then say what you mean. Objections to SH or EH or Jefferson are not about the lack of honors classes but rather about disadvantaged kids.

Anonymous wrote:Come on, when you have favorable school demographics, you essentially have honors classes.

Not having honors classes in "neighborhood schools" is obviously a much bigger problem in this city where most students are low SES than in schools where most are high SES.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The main problem isn't figuring it out - it's making it happen.

I'm in-boundary for SH and would enroll my kid for 6th grade there next year IF the school were offering honors classes not only in math and ELA, but in science and social studies.

No great shake-up in the Hill middle school configuration, or anything else, would be needed to offer honors classes in ELA and social studies at SH IN ADDITION TO honors classes in ELA and math. All that's needed is a teeny policy shift that hasn't been made, and, at the rate things are going, probably won't be made in the next decade. DCPS won't permit a full menu of honors classes at any DCPS middle school under any circumstances, period.

The fact is, Hobson has been offering advanced math and ELA for over a decade now, but there are no plans to offer advanced science and social studies. The latter subjects are those of greatest interest to my kid -he works above grade level in both subjects with great enthusiasm. I've toured the school, talked to admins, talked to the science and social studies teachers, and have come away with no confidence that he'd be consistently challenged in any subject at SH. No good, we're going to BASIS, Latin or going private by 6th grade.

There are not advanced or honors social studies or science or ELA classes at BASIS or Latin either.

Anonymous wrote:And yet, despite only taking families who enter a lottery, and having all the advantages you mentioned, and an easier time kicking kids out, the charter schools you mentioned aren't that different in terms of test scores.

White kids do the best at SH, then DCI, then Latin.

Black kids do the best in DCI, then Latin, then SH.

Latino it's SH, Latin, DCI.

At risk it's SH and DCI, with Latin worse.

In all of these, the differences are somewhat negligible. Clearly if you want language immersion DCI makes sense and if you want to avoid Eastern and don't think your kid will make it into a selective DCPS it feels good to be done through 12th grade with Latin (though in that scenario does your kid really need advanced middle school classes?). But test score wise, there's really no argument that your kid will have a significantly stronger middle school cohort at DCI or Latin than SH. Richer? Whiter? yeah. But academically pretty similar.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The main problem isn't figuring it out - it's making it happen.

I'm in-boundary for SH and would enroll my kid for 6th grade there next year IF the school were offering honors classes not only in math and ELA, but in science and social studies.

No great shake-up in the Hill middle school configuration, or anything else, would be needed to offer honors classes in ELA and social studies at SH IN ADDITION TO honors classes in ELA and math. All that's needed is a teeny policy shift that hasn't been made, and, at the rate things are going, probably won't be made in the next decade. DCPS won't permit a full menu of honors classes at any DCPS middle school under any circumstances, period.

The fact is, Hobson has been offering advanced math and ELA for over a decade now, but there are no plans to offer advanced science and social studies. The latter subjects are those of greatest interest to my kid -he works above grade level in both subjects with great enthusiasm. I've toured the school, talked to admins, talked to the science and social studies teachers, and have come away with no confidence that he'd be consistently challenged in any subject at SH. No good, we're going to BASIS, Latin or going private by 6th grade.

There are not advanced or honors social studies or science or ELA classes at BASIS or Latin either.

True - but you have (especially in the case of Basis) a self-selected group of predominantly high-performing kids. So you don't need "honors" classes because the baseline is high. And, at Basis, there is no social promotion - so as the years go by the cohort becomes even more high performing.

THIS, this, and this. If you can’t track then you look at peer groups. It’s obvious which school has one of the highest performing peer groups in the city and it’s Basis. It’s also true Basis could care less about social promotion.

No kids at Basis but I respect the school for adhering to a high academic standard.

As to Latin and DCI for EOTP middle/high school, it’s the same concept - peer groups. Higher performing peer groups that are majority.

Stuart Hobson ELA/Math is 56/24. DCI is 63/42 for middle and Latin is 63/48. Certainly a difference in math, but at SH it's tracked. The difference in ELA doesn't seem too significant.