Anonymous wrote:I think the explanation has a couple different roots:

Many/most of us grew up without specific instruction and regular practice in domestic skills. (This is not necessarily all bad -- it meant the girls weren't segregated to home ec while the boys took shop, and daughters weren't automatically expected to help their mothers in the kitchen while dad and the boys relaxed.) But it does mean that we don't automatically have points of reference for labor- and time-saving things like menu-planning, how to pull together a quick supper, a daily/weekly rhythm for chores, etc.

So what we know, we picked up from Martha Stewart and the Food Network. Great for aspirational one-offs, sure -- but it skews expectations for daily living. You don't need Ina Garten and homemade ricotta to help you make dinner on a Tuesday between band and soccer. Nor does your coffee tablescape have to include anything beyond a laptop, legos and geometry homework.

Like any skill, basic cooking and cleaning take practice. And they suck up time and energy while you learn. Some people are willing to muddle through. Others pick up skills because there's no other good option. Others says forget it, I'm willing to buy myself out of this.

The last element is kids. "Quality time" is a new construct. Now we feel like every moment with our kids has to be a) enjoyable, b) memorable, and c) growth-inducing (but only UMC/pre-professional growth, so learning how to sew on a button is out). But if there are 4-6 people in a household and only two are doing regular maintenance, things go south pretty fast. (Especially if there's no incentive not to drop things on the floor because you don't have to sweep them up. Or to wash the toothpaste out of the sink if you don't ever have to wipe down.)

Would I rather go to the movies than have my kids put away their laundry? Sure. But the tradeoff is that they've gotten a lot faster with practice. And they don't put clean-but-vetoed clothes in the hamper now that they have to wash their stuff. It's kind of like shoelaces vs. velcro -- velcro's a lot easier than teaching your kids how to tie their shoes (and nagging them for 13 more years to retie them). But at some point you have to help your kid become a functional adult, if only because they can't ask their HYP interviewer to help them make bunny ears.

This made me spit my water out. Thank you, PP, I needed that today.

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m 100% you weren’t aware of your parents attitudes or chores until you were 12 or so, at which yes it is much easier than when you have young kids. That’s mostly what it is. Though I’m sure you are more processed food too.

A lot of excellent points on this thread!

OP, lots and lots of us working moms had a SAHM when we were kids. That’s great that you saw your mom “do it all” but I didn’t. My mom also had a 15 hours/week housekeeper despite staying home. And my dad made a heckuva lot more money than DH and I make combined. Same story in DH’s house growing up. Oh, and sports were one game and one practice per week. So yes, I have trouble keeping up as it wasn’t modeled for me on the way I need to do it.

OP I’m 100% you weren’t aware of your parents attitudes or chores until you were 12 or so, at which yes it is much easier than when you have young kids. That’s mostly what it is. Though I’m sure you are more processed food too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People. The OP said it's not a problem to hire things out. She said it's a problem if YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE MONEY TO HIRE THINGS OUT.

There's a difference. If you're going to be cheap and complain about money, do it your damn self.

She complained about both. She basically defined invisible labor.

"It's not hard work, so don't complain about it. But if you have to hire someone to do it, pay them a lot, because it is hard work."
The only one who never gets any acknowledgement that this sh*t is hard is the women who do it for their families. And don't fool yourselves that this didn't happen to your mothers too.

+1,000,000

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People. The OP said it's not a problem to hire things out. She said it's a problem if YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE MONEY TO HIRE THINGS OUT.

There's a difference. If you're going to be cheap and complain about money, do it your damn self.

She complained about both. She basically defined invisible labor.

"It's not hard work, so don't complain about it. But if you have to hire someone to do it, pay them a lot, because it is hard work."
The only one who never gets any acknowledgement that this sh*t is hard is the women who do it for their families. And don't fool yourselves that this didn't happen to your mothers too.

*wild applause emoji*

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. So what I've noticed is a lot of women saying their husbands work SUCH demanding "high powered" jobs (hate that phrase btw, it sounds really stupid) that they cannot be expected to ever take a kid sick day, snow day, or lift a finger at home.

I find this hard to believe because even though my husband is in a well paid profession (finance - he makes around 850k now), as he's gotten more senior, his hours have *really* scaled back. A lot of it has to do with better technology but also being able to delegate certain bitch work tasks. He's home by 6 every night, minimal travel, and flexible hours. Today he's leaving at 9 to take one of our kids to the doctor because I have an appointment elsewhere.

I'm 38, he's 39 so we're around the age as most people on here who have kids.

Oh, yeah, this is totally typical. I completely understand why you are puzzled that this is not everyone's experience.

Seriously. Poor poor you. 850k is so hard.

I know this is a big money forum, but for those of us that struggle, here is the disconnect. Imagine being a mom , working FT in a hard demanding industry with no weekends off , no maternity pay , often little vacation or benefits. Dad works too. Household income around 70k. House is a fixer upper, so that's your weekend. And a small child. I'm gen x, and that was my situation when my now grown daughter was little. I never had help and although I didn't whine, I was constantly exhausted.

Be grateful and stop looking down your nose.

I clean and do chores all the time. Just like my mom did. But neither or us are the type to get down and play with the kids. We had a lot of kids so they play with each other! My sister in law can't find the time to do laundry but she's also playing UNO tournaments and making snowmen with her kids. I think there's benefits to both ways but her way is probably better. My anxiety won't let me NOT do the housework.

Anonymous wrote:People. The OP said it's not a problem to hire things out. She said it's a problem if YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE MONEY TO HIRE THINGS OUT.

There's a difference. If you're going to be cheap and complain about money, do it your damn self.

She complained about both. She basically defined invisible labor.

"It's not hard work, so don't complain about it. But if you have to hire someone to do it, pay them a lot, because it is hard work."
The only one who never gets any acknowledgement that this sh*t is hard is the women who do it for their families. And don't fool yourselves that this didn't happen to your mothers too.

People. The OP said it's not a problem to hire things out. She said it's a problem if YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE MONEY TO HIRE THINGS OUT.

There's a difference. If you're going to be cheap and complain about money, do it your damn self.

My parents stopped packing my lunch or doing my laundry at age 8. We also ate a lot of takeout and our house was a mess. I have higher standards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. So what I've noticed is a lot of women saying their husbands work SUCH demanding "high powered" jobs (hate that phrase btw, it sounds really stupid) that they cannot be expected to ever take a kid sick day, snow day, or lift a finger at home.

I find this hard to believe because even though my husband is in a well paid profession (finance - he makes around 850k now), as he's gotten more senior, his hours have *really* scaled back. A lot of it has to do with better technology but also being able to delegate certain bitch work tasks. He's home by 6 every night, minimal travel, and flexible hours. Today he's leaving at 9 to take one of our kids to the doctor because I have an appointment elsewhere.

I'm 38, he's 39 so we're around the age as most people on here who have kids.

NP here. Well, my husband makes a fraction of what yours makes ($150k) and is the second senior person in his office, but thanks to it being a government job with lots of budget cuts and hiring freezes, he has almost no one under him to do the bitch work tasks, as you put it. So if DH doesn't do the work, then it doesn't get done. As he's gotten more senior, his hours have increased and gotten less flexible. (Yes, he's looking for other jobs.) Since he's in legislative work, it's not easy for him to take off unplanned days BUT he's able to plan and take off the week at spring break, the 3 weeks in the summer we don't have child care, the week at Thanksgiving, and the two weeks at winter break. And, he does almost all the housework. But really, not everyone who is senior has less to do, and especially not at $850k a year.

This is another reason why private sector > public. Plus the $$$.

Anonymous wrote:Our parents in many cases worked fewer hours, had shorter commutes, and more family help. They were probably in better shape too, so more energetic.

So shorten your commute and get in shape if that’s preventing you from washing a dish. This isn’t rocket science.

I think the explanation has a couple different roots:

Many/most of us grew up without specific instruction and regular practice in domestic skills. (This is not necessarily all bad -- it meant the girls weren't segregated to home ec while the boys took shop, and daughters weren't automatically expected to help their mothers in the kitchen while dad and the boys relaxed.) But it does mean that we don't automatically have points of reference for labor- and time-saving things like menu-planning, how to pull together a quick supper, a daily/weekly rhythm for chores, etc.

So what we know, we picked up from Martha Stewart and the Food Network. Great for aspirational one-offs, sure -- but it skews expectations for daily living. You don't need Ina Garten and homemade ricotta to help you make dinner on a Tuesday between band and soccer. Nor does your coffee tablescape have to include anything beyond a laptop, legos and geometry homework.

Like any skill, basic cooking and cleaning take practice. And they suck up time and energy while you learn. Some people are willing to muddle through. Others pick up skills because there's no other good option. Others says forget it, I'm willing to buy myself out of this.

The last element is kids. "Quality time" is a new construct. Now we feel like every moment with our kids has to be a) enjoyable, b) memorable, and c) growth-inducing (but only UMC/pre-professional growth, so learning how to sew on a button is out). But if there are 4-6 people in a household and only two are doing regular maintenance, things go south pretty fast. (Especially if there's no incentive not to drop things on the floor because you don't have to sweep them up. Or to wash the toothpaste out of the sink if you don't ever have to wipe down.)

Would I rather go to the movies than have my kids put away their laundry? Sure. But the tradeoff is that they've gotten a lot faster with practice. And they don't put clean-but-vetoed clothes in the hamper now that they have to wash their stuff. It's kind of like shoelaces vs. velcro -- velcro's a lot easier than teaching your kids how to tie their shoes (and nagging them for 13 more years to retie them). But at some point you have to help your kid become a functional adult, if only because they can't ask their HYP interviewer to help them make bunny ears.

I don't know what you're talking about, OP. I always heard complaints from my parents. Stuff like "I work all day to put food on the table and I come home to a mess that I'll have to clean! Must be nice to be able to pay someone to clean you house. Get out of the kitchen; I just cleaned it! I'd love to play outside all day, too, but I have work to do. Just wait until you grow up..." Maybe your parents were just really reserved with you. Mine say whatever they're thinking.