Anonymous
10/16/2019 02:17
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Against my better judgment, I got roped into a family vacation with my parents and preschooler. DH is at home. My kid has been an incredible sport over the last few days, but late nights were finally wearing on him, and he had been a defiant, crying mess for parts of the day.
It was finally about 6:15pm, after a long day with no stops for snacks since lunch or naps, so I wanted to prioritize getting something for my kid to eat before a really big meltdown happened. I repeatedly said, “let's go, we have to go, [child] is hungry, we need to eat,” etc. My dad was fiddling with trying to download some audio of a news program on his phone (definitely not mission critical to feeding a hungry, tired kid), and after about five minutes of this, every other person went out to the car to wait for him. He finally showed up 10 minutes later, and insisted that we couldn’t leave until he figured out how to connect his phone to the Bluetooth in the car so that he could listen to his news program. After fiddling with this for another three to four minutes, I finally said something to him about us needing to go, and then he roared back stating, without a hint of self-awareness, that he, had in fact, been waiting for us this entire time.
Once again, against my better judgment, I told him that we had been waiting in the car for him for 10 minutes. He then stormed out of the car, and threatened to not have dinner with us (which would have been totally fine with me). My mom cajoled him back to the car, and then he proceeded to lecture me in front of my child about how disrespectful I am, and that I would never say something like that to a coworker or a friend. I told him that none of my coworkers or friends would ever do that.
Something like this happens every single time we spend time together. It’s an unbreakable dynamic, but I am terrible at just keeping my mouth shut. He has this victim complex and he’s a bully, which is a terrible combination. He just has no concept of what’s going on immediately around him or the needs of others.
1. How have I not learned my lesson about vacationing with my parents?
2. Being realistic that I will have to spend time with him in order to spend time with my mom, how do I handle this?
Wait... do we secretly have the same dad?
Are you my long lost half sister?!?
Anonymous
10/15/2019 16:54
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Personally, I attend family events and shared vacations. But, I always make plans for my own nuclear family and our priorities. With the exception of when we traveled out of the country, I always make my own travel arrangements, ensure we have a vehicle, ensure we have lodgings that work for us, even if we are not staying at the same place as the rest of the family. I also make sure that we have adequate food and snacks that meet our dietary concerns. It is not anyone else's business or job to account for us and I don't ask for accommodations, I make them for ourselves. This last vacation, I made the mistake of agreeing to arrangements that my mother had a travel agent make for the family and, as expected, there were several issues of ours that were completely overlooked and having not made the arrangements myself, I regretted it.
In the future, it's back to making my own plans for family vacations.
That's fine if it works for you. But as PP mentioned, it is an awful lot of emotional and actual labor, particularly for people who don't seem to be looking after your interests very much. In OP's situation where an adult is raging and a child is having daily breakdowns from exhaustion, it doesn't sound like spending one's budget and time off on this type of travel is worthwhile.
Anonymous
10/15/2019 14:33
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
Personally, I attend family events and shared vacations. But, I always make plans for my own nuclear family and our priorities. With the exception of when we traveled out of the country, I always make my own travel arrangements, ensure we have a vehicle, ensure we have lodgings that work for us, even if we are not staying at the same place as the rest of the family. I also make sure that we have adequate food and snacks that meet our dietary concerns. It is not anyone else's business or job to account for us and I don't ask for accommodations, I make them for ourselves. This last vacation, I made the mistake of agreeing to arrangements that my mother had a travel agent make for the family and, as expected, there were several issues of ours that were completely overlooked and having not made the arrangements myself, I regretted it.
In the future, it's back to making my own plans for family vacations.
In the future, it's back to making my own plans for family vacations.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 16:39
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:OP, first let me offer empathy. This all sounds unpleasant to be stuck between your father’s temper tantrum and trying to prevent your child from melting down.
Get out of the mindset of protecting your mom. She’s an adult who made the choice to marry your dad, stay married, avoid counseling, and enable certain behaviors. She’s just as strong and capable (if not more so) as you when it comes to arguments with your father.
As for the future, evaluate whether these trips are a good fit. It is hard to balance a young child’s needs against any group of adults, let alone a group that contains a checked-out bully prone to explosions. Is this really fun for you? Is it good for your child? Yes, there can be disappointment when you say “no,” but is that disappointment worse than the way you and your child feel on these trips? Is it worse than the behaviors being modeled for your child?
If you do choose to go, have copious coping strategies. Drive separate cars, stay in different hotel rooms or houses, bring lots of snacks. Plan an itinerary for yourself that leaves nap time for your kiddo, even if that means you won’t be with your parents all day. Do whatever you can to bring back more control over your situation, as you would have in your home environment. If it means making trips shorter, arriving in advance of your parents, insisting on traveling with DH, do it.
NP here. I am NC with my family of origin, precisely because of the level of emotional labor I would have to undertake as described above. It sucks when you have dysfunctional family members and there comes a time when the notion of kinship entirely ceases to motivate you to maintain any contact. I hope OP finally sees the light one of these days.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 15:28
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
OP, first let me offer empathy. This all sounds unpleasant to be stuck between your father’s temper tantrum and trying to prevent your child from melting down.
Get out of the mindset of protecting your mom. She’s an adult who made the choice to marry your dad, stay married, avoid counseling, and enable certain behaviors. She’s just as strong and capable (if not more so) as you when it comes to arguments with your father.
As for the future, evaluate whether these trips are a good fit. It is hard to balance a young child’s needs against any group of adults, let alone a group that contains a checked-out bully prone to explosions. Is this really fun for you? Is it good for your child? Yes, there can be disappointment when you say “no,” but is that disappointment worse than the way you and your child feel on these trips? Is it worse than the behaviors being modeled for your child?
If you do choose to go, have copious coping strategies. Drive separate cars, stay in different hotel rooms or houses, bring lots of snacks. Plan an itinerary for yourself that leaves nap time for your kiddo, even if that means you won’t be with your parents all day. Do whatever you can to bring back more control over your situation, as you would have in your home environment. If it means making trips shorter, arriving in advance of your parents, insisting on traveling with DH, do it.
Get out of the mindset of protecting your mom. She’s an adult who made the choice to marry your dad, stay married, avoid counseling, and enable certain behaviors. She’s just as strong and capable (if not more so) as you when it comes to arguments with your father.
As for the future, evaluate whether these trips are a good fit. It is hard to balance a young child’s needs against any group of adults, let alone a group that contains a checked-out bully prone to explosions. Is this really fun for you? Is it good for your child? Yes, there can be disappointment when you say “no,” but is that disappointment worse than the way you and your child feel on these trips? Is it worse than the behaviors being modeled for your child?
If you do choose to go, have copious coping strategies. Drive separate cars, stay in different hotel rooms or houses, bring lots of snacks. Plan an itinerary for yourself that leaves nap time for your kiddo, even if that means you won’t be with your parents all day. Do whatever you can to bring back more control over your situation, as you would have in your home environment. If it means making trips shorter, arriving in advance of your parents, insisting on traveling with DH, do it.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:28
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
You need to plan ahead. You know that they won’t be on your kids’ schedule so you need to find other ways to meet kids needs. That means:
1) Transportation. If uber/lyft isn’t an option then you need your own rental car. If that means your trip is more expensive then you visit less often.
2) Rest. Kids need rest so if your kid naps at home then he needs at least a shot at napping during trips. That may be in the car if your folks will ride quietly or you can drive somewhere with just nuclear family, or it could be the stroller or a baby carrier or you need to head home after lunch to rest.
3) Food. Always have enough snacks for a meal for your kid in your bag. You might need it because the restaurant everyone chose wasn’t kid friendly or because they aren’t hingry until 7 and your kid eats at 5.
4) Age appropriate activities. Always have some books or small toys for a quiet playtime and some bubbles or punchballoons to get some energy out in a random courtyard or lawn.
1) Transportation. If uber/lyft isn’t an option then you need your own rental car. If that means your trip is more expensive then you visit less often.
2) Rest. Kids need rest so if your kid naps at home then he needs at least a shot at napping during trips. That may be in the car if your folks will ride quietly or you can drive somewhere with just nuclear family, or it could be the stroller or a baby carrier or you need to head home after lunch to rest.
3) Food. Always have enough snacks for a meal for your kid in your bag. You might need it because the restaurant everyone chose wasn’t kid friendly or because they aren’t hingry until 7 and your kid eats at 5.
4) Age appropriate activities. Always have some books or small toys for a quiet playtime and some bubbles or punchballoons to get some energy out in a random courtyard or lawn.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:13
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm assuming you aren't helpless and passive with your DH and that you fall back into learned patterns when you're around you're parents. What would your response have been if your DH was behaving as your father - and don't say your DH wouldn't. Use your imagination. Wouldn't you have put your foot down, advocated for your kid and then do what needed to be done to make sure your DS's needs were being met?
Instead, you became this passive, unassertive wimp who is more worried about the impact of your behavior on your mother rather than what was happening with your child. You allowed your parents ('cause your mother is also making choices here) to call all the shots and you were just a victim of their choices.
It is not your family members who lack self-awareness, it is you. Per your OP, this happens every time and so rather than look to them to be different or more aware, you need to be more aware of how you can stop being a victim. You are capable of controlling your time with your parents. You choose not to. This is definitely not an unbreakable dynamic.
What is somebody to do in that situation? Drag somebody who is half a foot taller than me out of the house? I try to advocate for myself and my child, and I get lectured. I can’t win, so I think I’m going to stop trying.
You don't try to advocate, you ACT. Hire an Uber. Order in a pizza. Get a second rental car. Tell your parents that you are taking your child out to eat for an early dinner, just the two of you, and ask if they want you to bring them something back to eat. Get your child to bed on time. Go shopping and fill the rental house with snacks. There are so many other options besides sitting back, getting lectured and apologizing for your mother's choices.
This. I don’t “ask” or explain things to my parents or ILs- I’m in my 40s! We TELL them what we (our immediately family) are doing, as described above. We’d tell them we are leaving to grab dinner, and see you back at the hotel! I find this entire scenario difficult to understand- sounds more like a teenager/parent dynamic than a mature adult child with a family of her own/parent dynamic.
THIS. "Josie needs to eat now, so we're going to walk across the street to the taco place. Have a good dinner."
Y'all live in an odd reality where people respond to you in predictable ways and everything turns out favorably for you.
"Josie needs to eat now, so we're going to the taco place."
"Oh great, we'll join you, just give us a minute. "
Waits a minute, prods the grandparents, causing grandpa to yell and lecture.
Or
"Ok dad, we'll meet you at the taco place. "
They arrive while you're already eating, grandpa gets huffy and hurt, causing him to yell and lecture.
I agree that op does need to set boundaries and be firm. But don't kid yourself that this plan will elicit a different response from grandpa.
I'm the first PP that said OP was falling back into learned patterns when she's around her parents. I grew up in an abusive, dysfunctional household with a father who had a personality disorder. My mother did everything she could to 'keep the peace'. So, no, I don't expect people to respond in predictable ways and I don't expect everything to turn out favorably for me. I do expect to know my choices and own whatever decisions I make. OP has many options but she falls back to the one learned first. She accepts whatever choices her parents make. In the examples you give, all I can say is, so what' if the grandparents get pissed? So what if you've eaten before they got to the taco place?
Choices have consequences. OP came here bitching about the choices she made. She needs to make different ones if she doesn't like the results. Not so hard to understand.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:08
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:For those of you who say they'd stop at nothing to meet the needs of their child, everybody is brave behind a keyboard. OP can't legally drive the car if she's not on the contract. Maybe she should be on the contract, but she wasn't, at least not then, and I don't blame her for not risking a literal accident.
OP, I'd suggest you only vacation with your parents when your husband is present. My guess is your dad wouldn't berate you in front of another man. Most men won't. I'd make plans to leave this vacation, I'd tell your husband what happened, and I'd tell him the new plan, i.e. he will always be present with you when you visit your parents, and the two of you will always have the means and ability to gtfo if you need or want to. Your part is to realize that based on your dad's shouting at you (and I'm assuming this is what really happened) that you don't see your parents as much as you or they may like. Actions have consequences and you are not obligated to be mistreated by anybody. That's the good thing about being an adult.
This is OP. Thank you.
My husband has definitely seen my dad do this with me, and when he has spoken up about it, it shocked my dad, and he didn’t talk to either of us for a day. It was glorious, but made my mom miserable. I had a come to Jesus with her this morning that I won’t help her enable him anymore, and this is the last family vacation.
Good for you, OP.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:07
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Your dad sounds like my dad. You need to accept that how he treats your mom is not your problem. She’s a grown woman. If she doesn’t like it, she can divorce him. It’s not your job to protect her. It IS your job to protect yourself and your kid. I sympathize — I too grew up walking on eggshells to avoid setting my dad off because he would take it out on everyone for ages if I did — but you’re a free adult now. You can drop the rope. Let him be mad. Just don’t put yourself in a position where he has the power over you again.
Yeah, OP, this is the unfortunate dynamic in my family as well. My mom chooses to stay. I hate that for me and I hate it for her, but she's an adult and it's her choice. I wish it was different. It has definitely harmed my relationship with her.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:05
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
That’s when you say, “Larlo really needs to eat within 1/2 an hour. If we don’t leave soon, Larlo and I will have to eat here.” Then if dad drags his feet and it’s obvious you’re not going anywhere soon, you feed Larlo at home or order a pizza. Your problem is that you’re trying to manage your dad’s passive aggressive behavior, but this is dysfunctional thinking. You are not responsible for dad’s reaction, or the way dad might treat mom when he’a angry. You are just responsible for you and your preschooler.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 14:01
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:For those of you who say they'd stop at nothing to meet the needs of their child, everybody is brave behind a keyboard. OP can't legally drive the car if she's not on the contract. Maybe she should be on the contract, but she wasn't, at least not then, and I don't blame her for not risking a literal accident.
OP, I'd suggest you only vacation with your parents when your husband is present. My guess is your dad wouldn't berate you in front of another man. Most men won't. I'd make plans to leave this vacation, I'd tell your husband what happened, and I'd tell him the new plan, i.e. he will always be present with you when you visit your parents, and the two of you will always have the means and ability to gtfo if you need or want to. Your part is to realize that based on your dad's shouting at you (and I'm assuming this is what really happened) that you don't see your parents as much as you or they may like. Actions have consequences and you are not obligated to be mistreated by anybody. That's the good thing about being an adult.
This is OP. Thank you.
My husband has definitely seen my dad do this with me, and when he has spoken up about it, it shocked my dad, and he didn’t talk to either of us for a day. It was glorious, but made my mom miserable. I had a come to Jesus with her this morning that I won’t help her enable him anymore, and this is the last family vacation.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 13:53
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:YOU lack self-awareness if you can't see you're a victim and a martyr. Stop being such a willing participant in this dynamic. Grow up, open your mouth, say no.
I do, but it puts my mother in a terrible position where she bears the brunt of his anger once I say anything.
Y’all are codependent.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 13:39
Subject: Re:Handling family members who are not self-aware
Read the book "Walking on Eggshells" for tactics to better cope with your dad. He is a narcissist (which means he has little to no empathy or self-awareness) and your mom is an enabler. Don't ever get into a situation where you are dependent on them again. I know it is hard when you love your mom and worry about her, but his behavior toward his family is abusive.
Anonymous
10/14/2019 13:22
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
Were the Grands paying for this fun vacation?
Anonymous
10/14/2019 13:14
Subject: Handling family members who are not self-aware
I think some parents view us as teenagers, always. They see us with our kids and it's almost like they see us with a tiny version of ourselves, or themselves, or with a much younger sibling. There have been many times when my dad will say to one ofmy kids "get mom" and they'll come get me, only to have him be puzzled that they got me not *my* mom. This isn't new behavior, he's done it since my oldest was a toddler and could follow the "get mom" instruction.
I think some parents respond better to our spouses then they do to us. I can tell by the energy level how my parents will respond and there are times when things go a lot better when my husband says "The kids need to eat now" then if I do.
I'm not sure if seeing a spouse trips something in their brains, or if they view their adult children as a kid who can wait until the adults are ready. Think about it, how many of us have pushed dinner back or told our kids to wait a little longer to eat.
For those of you who say they'd stop at nothing to meet the needs of their child, everybody is brave behind a keyboard. OP can't legally drive the car if she's not on the contract. Maybe she should be on the contract, but she wasn't, at least not then, and I don't blame her for not risking a literal accident.
OP, I'd suggest you only vacation with your parents when your husband is present. My guess is your dad wouldn't berate you in front of another man. Most men won't. I'd make plans to leave this vacation, I'd tell your husband what happened, and I'd tell him the new plan, i.e. he will always be present with you when you visit your parents, and the two of you will always have the means and ability to gtfo if you need or want to. Your part is to realize that based on your dad's shouting at you (and I'm assuming this is what really happened) that you don't see your parents as much as you or they may like. Actions have consequences and you are not obligated to be mistreated by anybody. That's the good thing about being an adult.
I think some parents respond better to our spouses then they do to us. I can tell by the energy level how my parents will respond and there are times when things go a lot better when my husband says "The kids need to eat now" then if I do.
I'm not sure if seeing a spouse trips something in their brains, or if they view their adult children as a kid who can wait until the adults are ready. Think about it, how many of us have pushed dinner back or told our kids to wait a little longer to eat.
For those of you who say they'd stop at nothing to meet the needs of their child, everybody is brave behind a keyboard. OP can't legally drive the car if she's not on the contract. Maybe she should be on the contract, but she wasn't, at least not then, and I don't blame her for not risking a literal accident.
OP, I'd suggest you only vacation with your parents when your husband is present. My guess is your dad wouldn't berate you in front of another man. Most men won't. I'd make plans to leave this vacation, I'd tell your husband what happened, and I'd tell him the new plan, i.e. he will always be present with you when you visit your parents, and the two of you will always have the means and ability to gtfo if you need or want to. Your part is to realize that based on your dad's shouting at you (and I'm assuming this is what really happened) that you don't see your parents as much as you or they may like. Actions have consequences and you are not obligated to be mistreated by anybody. That's the good thing about being an adult.