Anonymous wrote:Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you take the time to read the research linked in that thread or do you just want to start another racist/classist thread? There is a political forum for your type.

I am asking a very specific question. There are two separate points that are often conflated. One, that SES mixed schools (30-50 % disadvantaged) Provide academic benefits to low SES kids and high SES kids do fine (or maybe better). The second, what I am asking about, is that the education of the mother is the factor most correlated with a child’s academic success. The second is often used to support the argument that the success of a school doesn’t matter at all because your child will do well no matter what solely because of who the parents are. What I am asking whether and, if so, how those studies establish causation or otherwise account for the choices an educated mother will make on where she sends her children to school or it is pure correlation?

None of the linked research (to the extent it opens because some links are bad) address my question. Sending my child to a poorly performing school is a different question than sending my kids to an SES mixed school. I have zero problem with the second.

I think what you want to hear is that there have been lots of studies that are well designed and well controlled that have shown that the quality of the school and other students has a statistically reliable effect on educational outcomes. What you don't want to hear is that even the best predictors (things like SES) only capture a little bit of the variance in the outcomes and that school quality accounts for substantially less.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’ll do y’all one better. How about you show me a study that shows wealthy white kids are harmed by SES/racial diversity?

Here's something addressing why students at "high poverty" schools are a disadantage.


https://www.thecommonwealthinstitute.org/2017/10/26/unequal-opportunities-fewer-resources-worse-outcomes-for-students-in-schools-with-concentrated-poverty/

I don't know the specifics of the OP's situation, but if studies show that high poverty schools are disadvantageous, are there any studies that show that higher SES students do just as well in high poverty schools as low poverty schools?

That’s high poverty. All studies show ideal is 30-50% low income. Sure, we don’t have enough to make all HS that level, but you start with breaking up Wilson and freeing sets for Coolidge and Roosevelt and then as people opt in, you can go east with Dunbar etc.

I'm not arguing with you about the concept. But if advocating, it would be helpful to have any studies showing that a higher SES Student (maybe one currently in a low poverty school) who is sent to a high poverty school, which I'm going to define as more than 30% FARMS, will do just as well as she would have at the low poverty school. I'm not picking a fight - just wanting to know if there are studies to back it up.

I would want to see that they did "just as well" not only academically, but socially/emotionally.

Advanced classes don’t lead to better outcomes. https://medium.com/edmodoblog/avoid-ap-course-overload-it-matters-less-than-you-think-3382c064d7f2

Anonymous wrote:I agree with PP that public schools are designed to teach the average masses. If your child falls outside of that average- for whatever reason- you might need to either (1) gain special accommodations for your child or (2) find a different school. DC schools do not seem to be in the business of accommodations for extremely advanced and/or gifted kids. So kids in this category might have to look elsewhere. It isn't the big deal that people make it out to be. Like everything else in life, you need or want something different than the basic (free) option, pay for the upgrade.

Respectfully, the answer is simpler than this, and has been implemented for at least 100 years in US public schools, so it is more than doable: track the studentsw. DCPS has reversed this practice and decided to immerse all income brackets into mainstream classes (example: "honors for all" at Wilson) in the hope that will "lift up all boats." In contrast, anyone who has experienced public education in the US knows the truth: not all boats will be lifted, as students with ability to achieve well academically are locked in at about 20% (my shorthand estimate) of any cohort. As we all know, some of that top 20%'s abilities are lost due to circumstances at home and disruptive classes. If DCPS were to aggressively "track" students by ability by creating access to advanced classes across the board, it could separate this top 20% from the average students, and offer the best of them advanced coursework, whether they've presently tested in, or not. Just take the cream from the top of all classes: Academically inclined students will eventually achieve academically if given the opportunity to enter the advanced class and work hard. I have no doubt this would work, but DCPS is blinded by the optics.

I’ll jump in here to add another perspective. I’m white and my kids are Hispanic Spanish speakers and we are at one of the dual language schools and intend to send them all the way through if that works.

So maybe we’re different from your baseline of Walls/Bannker/Wilson are the only DCPS choices.

I’m willing to take it as far as it works. At this point the kids are way past their peers academically in some subjects but not others. I want them to get a chance to advance academically as would suit them. I don’t need them to get a pressure cooker education or get through college material before they graduate high school (though given their current progress a Coolidge early college or BASIS would probably work for them). I just want to know they are working hard, learning and picking up the skills to work hard and succeed as an adult.

All this to say that we’re proceeding as if Roosevelt is happening. Our kids could end up in classes that don’t suit them and then we make new decisions. But if the classes are fine, that’s what we’re going to do.

DC is getting wealthier and wealthier each year. Soon only rich people will live in DC and poor people will live in the exurbs.

I agree with PP that public schools are designed to teach the average masses. If your child falls outside of that average- for whatever reason- you might need to either (1) gain special accommodations for your child or (2) find a different school. DC schools do not seem to be in the business of accommodations for extremely advanced and/or gifted kids. So kids in this category might have to look elsewhere. It isn't the big deal that people make it out to be. Like everything else in life, you need or want something different than the basic (free) option, pay for the upgrade.

Anonymous wrote:The PP wanting more than just average college and job prospects for her child is not at all an outlier.

That is the crux of DC’s challenge. To way oversimplify, SE DC is a population of low and some middle-income families whose parents grew up locally. Such a description applies to many places across the US. In this instance, SE DC is urban and AA.

NW DC’s population (plus nearby MD) is skimmed from the highest achievers nationally and even internationally. It is an uncommon population of a sort that is found in this size and concentration in only a few places, such as parts of Manhattan and Silicon Valley. In most cities, this level of affluence would be found only in a couple of suburbs. While the ethnic make-up of NW looks “white” in comparison to SE, NW isn’t all that far off of national averages.

DC and DCPS have to work for both the regular, local population in SE and the rarified population in NW.

Racism is often cited as the cause of the difference in outcomes for the two sides of the city, but really the chasm between the two populations is much wider and deeper than race.

Thank you for putting this so succinctly. This is 100% the issue exactly.

The PP wanting more than just average college and job prospects for her child is not at all an outlier.

That is the crux of DC’s challenge. To way oversimplify, SE DC is a population of low and some middle-income families whose parents grew up locally. Such a description applies to many places across the US. In this instance, SE DC is urban and AA.

NW DC’s population (plus nearby MD) is skimmed from the highest achievers nationally and even internationally. It is an uncommon population of a sort that is found in this size and concentration in only a few places, such as parts of Manhattan and Silicon Valley. In most cities, this level of affluence would be found only in a couple of suburbs. While the ethnic make-up of NW looks “white” in comparison to SE, NW isn’t all that far off of national averages.

DC and DCPS have to work for both the regular, local population in SE and the rarified population in NW.

Racism is often cited as the cause of the difference in outcomes for the two sides of the city, but really the chasm between the two populations is much wider and deeper than race.

Anonymous wrote:But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

And where do these kids go to middle school? Are you suggesting split articulation?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies that would show what would happen to your specific child under specific different scenarios. We only have general studies and averages. Your child could end up with the "wrong crowd" at Wilson, could end up a "star pupil" at Coolidge, or "hate school" at McKinley. We cannot see the future, or any number of given circumstances that could impact the way your child turns out.

Generally speaking, your child will be "fine." Fine means a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. For most people, this scenario is all you could want for a child.

If you want "more" than that, then yes, you probably need to figure out some different ways to give your kids more of an advantage. Maybe that is private tutoring, sports coaching, art lessons, music school, etc. Maybe that is a different High School, Private School, Homeschool, etc. Maybe it is Harvard or bust. Maybe it is the Olympics or failure. But those types of goals are not what most people expect for their kids. And therefore, most studies will not tell you whether your future Harvard/Olympian/Presidential candidate/Supreme Court Justice/etc will be "fine" at any high school in DC.

I would venture to say that for the majority of WOTP families, "more" is what they expect. They aren't just looking for a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. They are looking for an education that can open up the pathways to a career and income level of the kid's choosing. They are looking for access to the same level of education for their child as they had themselves -- which is generally from very competitive colleges and grad schools. They are looking at the chances of their kid doing that at all types of schools. Looking at a high poverty school, I know my kid would need to fight to get the education I want them to have. That risk is too high for me.

In that case, you have to recognize that you are an outlier. While there might be a bunch in your surrounding area, you are not representative of the people these studies are made for. Additionally, you have to recognize that public schools are generally made for the average person. Government funded schools cannot cater to such a small subset of the population. What works for most everyone else, will not work for you.

For people in this category, I would recommend pursuing a private school that meets all your desires. This isn't snark. It is just accepting that the DC public school system is perhaps not going to meet your needs. And that is ok. Please remember, however, that for most people the DC school system will meet the needs of their child- and that too is ok.

You are almost exactly correct -- the part you get wrong is that we who live in WOTP D.C. are not "outliers," but are the actual residents of our neighborhoods, with very high levels of education -- and almost all of DCPS is not a good fit for my family. I say this as a dedicated participant in my DCPS P.T.A., where I was (to be clear, past tense) able to observe first-hand the then-jaw-dropping incompetence of DCPS. No wonder these schools suck terribly, as if the low-income population was not challenging enough. Needless to say, my kids are no longer attending. I know what it takes to achieve in competitive graduate-level University programs, and the majority of DCPS schools simply cannot prepare these kids. Cannot. Thank you for acknowledging the state of the problem for my family, and I appreciate that you can see my perspective.

Many kids from Wilson and SWW are doing it though. Anecdotally, all my neighbors' kids went to or are currently enrolled at very competitive colleges and are doing very well.

You are not making any point at all. SWW and Banneker, and perhaps still Wilson, are the only decent DCPS HS in the entire city.

Right- but PP was saying that DCPS can't do it at all. She went private. I'm saying it can from the decent schools.

But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies that would show what would happen to your specific child under specific different scenarios. We only have general studies and averages. Your child could end up with the "wrong crowd" at Wilson, could end up a "star pupil" at Coolidge, or "hate school" at McKinley. We cannot see the future, or any number of given circumstances that could impact the way your child turns out.

Generally speaking, your child will be "fine." Fine means a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. For most people, this scenario is all you could want for a child.

If you want "more" than that, then yes, you probably need to figure out some different ways to give your kids more of an advantage. Maybe that is private tutoring, sports coaching, art lessons, music school, etc. Maybe that is a different High School, Private School, Homeschool, etc. Maybe it is Harvard or bust. Maybe it is the Olympics or failure. But those types of goals are not what most people expect for their kids. And therefore, most studies will not tell you whether your future Harvard/Olympian/Presidential candidate/Supreme Court Justice/etc will be "fine" at any high school in DC.

I would venture to say that for the majority of WOTP families, "more" is what they expect. They aren't just looking for a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. They are looking for an education that can open up the pathways to a career and income level of the kid's choosing. They are looking for access to the same level of education for their child as they had themselves -- which is generally from very competitive colleges and grad schools. They are looking at the chances of their kid doing that at all types of schools. Looking at a high poverty school, I know my kid would need to fight to get the education I want them to have. That risk is too high for me.

In that case, you have to recognize that you are an outlier. While there might be a bunch in your surrounding area, you are not representative of the people these studies are made for. Additionally, you have to recognize that public schools are generally made for the average person. Government funded schools cannot cater to such a small subset of the population. What works for most everyone else, will not work for you.

For people in this category, I would recommend pursuing a private school that meets all your desires. This isn't snark. It is just accepting that the DC public school system is perhaps not going to meet your needs. And that is ok. Please remember, however, that for most people the DC school system will meet the needs of their child- and that too is ok.

You are almost exactly correct -- the part you get wrong is that we who live in WOTP D.C. are not "outliers," but are the actual residents of our neighborhoods, with very high levels of education -- and almost all of DCPS is not a good fit for my family. I say this as a dedicated participant in my DCPS P.T.A., where I was (to be clear, past tense) able to observe first-hand the then-jaw-dropping incompetence of DCPS. No wonder these schools suck terribly, as if the low-income population was not challenging enough. Needless to say, my kids are no longer attending. I know what it takes to achieve in competitive graduate-level University programs, and the majority of DCPS schools simply cannot prepare these kids. Cannot. Thank you for acknowledging the state of the problem for my family, and I appreciate that you can see my perspective.

Many kids from Wilson and SWW are doing it though. Anecdotally, all my neighbors' kids went to or are currently enrolled at very competitive colleges and are doing very well.

You are not making any point at all. SWW and Banneker, and perhaps still Wilson, are the only decent DCPS HS in the entire city.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies that would show what would happen to your specific child under specific different scenarios. We only have general studies and averages. Your child could end up with the "wrong crowd" at Wilson, could end up a "star pupil" at Coolidge, or "hate school" at McKinley. We cannot see the future, or any number of given circumstances that could impact the way your child turns out.

Generally speaking, your child will be "fine." Fine means a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. For most people, this scenario is all you could want for a child.

If you want "more" than that, then yes, you probably need to figure out some different ways to give your kids more of an advantage. Maybe that is private tutoring, sports coaching, art lessons, music school, etc. Maybe that is a different High School, Private School, Homeschool, etc. Maybe it is Harvard or bust. Maybe it is the Olympics or failure. But those types of goals are not what most people expect for their kids. And therefore, most studies will not tell you whether your future Harvard/Olympian/Presidential candidate/Supreme Court Justice/etc will be "fine" at any high school in DC.

I would venture to say that for the majority of WOTP families, "more" is what they expect. They aren't just looking for a happy, healthy, fully functioning adult with a college education, capable of supporting themselves/their family and contributing to society. They are looking for an education that can open up the pathways to a career and income level of the kid's choosing. They are looking for access to the same level of education for their child as they had themselves -- which is generally from very competitive colleges and grad schools. They are looking at the chances of their kid doing that at all types of schools. Looking at a high poverty school, I know my kid would need to fight to get the education I want them to have. That risk is too high for me.

In that case, you have to recognize that you are an outlier. While there might be a bunch in your surrounding area, you are not representative of the people these studies are made for. Additionally, you have to recognize that public schools are generally made for the average person. Government funded schools cannot cater to such a small subset of the population. What works for most everyone else, will not work for you.

For people in this category, I would recommend pursuing a private school that meets all your desires. This isn't snark. It is just accepting that the DC public school system is perhaps not going to meet your needs. And that is ok. Please remember, however, that for most people the DC school system will meet the needs of their child- and that too is ok.

You are almost exactly correct -- the part you get wrong is that we who live in WOTP D.C. are not "outliers," but are the actual residents of our neighborhoods, with very high levels of education -- and almost all of DCPS is not a good fit for my family. I say this as a dedicated participant in my DCPS P.T.A., where I was (to be clear, past tense) able to observe first-hand the then-jaw-dropping incompetence of DCPS. No wonder these schools suck terribly, as if the low-income population was not challenging enough. Needless to say, my kids are no longer attending. I know what it takes to achieve in competitive graduate-level University programs, and the majority of DCPS schools simply cannot prepare these kids. Cannot. Thank you for acknowledging the state of the problem for my family, and I appreciate that you can see my perspective.

Many kids from Wilson and SWW are doing it though. Anecdotally, all my neighbors' kids went to or are currently enrolled at very competitive colleges and are doing very well.