He needs to be told this from a male. I absolutely believe all young men do need guidance on dating from males because without it, they are led to believe that what they see in romantic comedies and from songs works. And that's not how the world works. None of that works or is what women want.

They won't ever truly learn this until they've seen it blow up in their face the first time over someone they truly loved. But might as well help guide them along the way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The one thing I wish boy parents would tell their sons is that when a girl has said No to dating, she means No, and to let it be. I wouldn’t call it friend zoning, I’d call it rejection and acknowledge that it hurts and is hard but that it’s final.

Except I know plenty of cases where a teenage girl said no to dating a boy, they stayed friends (s, "friend zoned" instead of "rejection", "final", etc) and ended up married. Why can't they just be friends?

I'm 50 and have never heard of this happening in real life, ever.

Anonymous wrote:One of the reasons that girls put boys in the friend zone (or just dump them) is because the boy's mother is too involved. No girl wants a mamma's boy so butt out.

Mamma's boys are not hot, OP

+1

It's also true that girls are socialized, no matter how badly they want to go to the dance with a boy, to say, "no."

If she says yes she's a slut.

This is part of the "national conversation" we are NOT having, girls' and women's deeply ingrained courtship behavior that forces men to pursue them.

So, no...and on a different note, what is it about some men that causes them to dig their heels in about how "girls are socialized", while also being wrong?

Anonymous wrote:better to let children know as early as possible the true nature of the opposite sex

Fify

better to let sons know as early as possible the true nature of the opposite sex

Anonymous wrote:I think people are beating up on OP. Sounds like her DS is pushing too hard and OP is trying to help him save face or worse, be perceived as predatory. This is a real fear, and everyone needs guidance about how to back off of romantic intentions when they are unwanted. Even girls.

Parents are supposed to talk to their kids about how to "do life" but also give them the rope to practice. It's a balance, and giving some gentle guidance or story-telling through it is not helicoptering. I do agree maybe this is better coming from dad or uncle though. But not imperative.

+1 I'm chiming in OP because we may have a similar situation. My son has always had lots of friends that are girls. I've known them since they were in kindergarten. They hang out at our house. I care about the girls and the guys too. Over the years, I've also watched them become girl "players". They love attention, want every boy to think they're beautiful, sob about being single (ha), and the ones who do have boyfriends complain and cry if they don't have the undivided attention they want.

YES boys are friend zoned and strung along and made to jump through hoops. My kid is friend zoned often. He doesn't care. I've told him a few times to know when to back off if he's crushing. He tells me that it doesn't matter because that's what his "girl" friends want. He's taught me that the male ego isn't so fragile at this age (DS 16). He's probably just hoping to get to first base.

It's all a game as young teens. If you have an open dialogue with you son, go for it! Maybe he doesn't realize he's in the zone. But I bet he does and he's cool with it.

Is it still common for women to think men should pursue them? I thought that had mostly died off, but I haven't been on the market for 25 years, so I don't have any direct experience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had to give my son a talk about the way girls communicate.

Boy: want to go out with me?
Girl: um, maybe I don't know.

Boy: didn't get told no, so thinks he should keep asking.

Boy: So, want to go out Friday night?
Girl: Welllll ... I think I'm busy Friday
Boy: Oh. So want to go out Saturday?
Girl: I'm babysitting.

Boy: didn't get told she doesn't WANT to go on a date, so thinks it's just a scheduling conflict.

I had to explain to him that girls are taught not to say no, and if he doesn't get a firm yes after two asks, he needs to mentally hear a "no" and move on. If the girl wanted to date him, she would say "I'm babysitting, but I could do something Saturday afternoon/next Friday night."

*Yes, I know they don't really date anymore. It's an old-fashioned example.

+1

It's also true that girls are socialized, no matter how badly they want to go to the dance with a boy, to say, "no."

If she says yes she's a slut.

This is part of the "national conversation" we are NOT having, girls' and women's deeply ingrained courtship behavior that forces men to pursue them.

are you a man who has been told "no" a lot, and you justify it this way? when I was a teen- and same for nowadays, according to the teen girls i know at least- no one says "no" to a request to go to prom, homecoming, etc if they like the guy. in fact, most girls will say "yes" to a prom or homecoming date request even if they were hoping ot go with someone else because they ahve been conditioned NOT to say no. total opposite.

Anonymous wrote:I had to give my son a talk about the way girls communicate.

Boy: want to go out with me?
Girl: um, maybe I don't know.

Boy: didn't get told no, so thinks he should keep asking.

Boy: So, want to go out Friday night?
Girl: Welllll ... I think I'm busy Friday
Boy: Oh. So want to go out Saturday?
Girl: I'm babysitting.

Boy: didn't get told she doesn't WANT to go on a date, so thinks it's just a scheduling conflict.

I had to explain to him that girls are taught not to say no, and if he doesn't get a firm yes after two asks, he needs to mentally hear a "no" and move on. If the girl wanted to date him, she would say "I'm babysitting, but I could do something Saturday afternoon/next Friday night."

*Yes, I know they don't really date anymore. It's an old-fashioned example.

+1

It's also true that girls are socialized, no matter how badly they want to go to the dance with a boy, to say, "no."

If she says yes she's a slut.

This is part of the "national conversation" we are NOT having, girls' and women's deeply ingrained courtship behavior that forces men to pursue them.

Anonymous wrote:I think people are beating up on OP. Sounds like her DS is pushing too hard and OP is trying to help him save face or worse, be perceived as predatory. This is a real fear, and everyone needs guidance about how to back off of romantic intentions when they are unwanted. Even girls.

Parents are supposed to talk to their kids about how to "do life" but also give them the rope to practice. It's a balance, and giving some gentle guidance or story-telling through it is not helicoptering. I do agree maybe this is better coming from dad or uncle though. But not imperative.

Actually we have no idea if that's what the situation sounds like because unless I missed it, OP hasn't given any details.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The one thing I wish boy parents would tell their sons is that when a girl has said No to dating, she means No, and to let it be. I wouldn’t call it friend zoning, I’d call it rejection and acknowledge that it hurts and is hard but that it’s final.

Except I know plenty of cases where a teenage girl said no to dating a boy, they stayed friends (s, "friend zoned" instead of "rejection", "final", etc) and ended up married. Why can't they just be friends?

Plenty huh? Maybe in Hollywood movies.

I wish I lived in a Hollywood movie, but alas, no. Just regular people from my high school.

Staying friends because you want to be friends and then dating later is fine and normal. Staying friends in the hope she’ll change her mind someday is not healthy. Stay friends if it doesn’t interfere with your seeking out fulfilling romantic relationships elsewhere. Don’t stay friends just in the hope that she’ll change her mind. Even if some women do, it’s not a good idea to sit around waiting for this particular girl/woman to.

So I actually agree 100% with you that it's not healthy for the guy to pine away after his friend for years in the hopes something might happen (I'm the one who knows people who the guy was interested, the girl friend zoned him, and then after 5 or more years they ended up getting together/ married/ etc). But I don't think the boy's mother telling him to do that is going to make him be like "oh, why, you're correct! I'll move on! Thanks, mother!"

I think people are beating up on OP. Sounds like her DS is pushing too hard and OP is trying to help him save face or worse, be perceived as predatory. This is a real fear, and everyone needs guidance about how to back off of romantic intentions when they are unwanted. Even girls.

Parents are supposed to talk to their kids about how to "do life" but also give them the rope to practice. It's a balance, and giving some gentle guidance or story-telling through it is not helicoptering. I do agree maybe this is better coming from dad or uncle though. But not imperative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, your son should read The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi:

https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-rational-male-d26844483.html

Red Pill stuff leads to bad places. I don't know about Rollo in particular, but the Red Pill community tells young men, and particularly white young men, that their pain & suffering is the fault of other people. Usually the blame goes to feckless "females" and minorities who get special treatment.

Hold your comments until you've read the book. OP's son is likely being manipulated. He needs to see it for what it is.

I see you're already in PP's bad place. Automatically attributing malign intent on the girl's part is exactly what the PP is concerned about.

Anonymous wrote:I had to give my son a talk about the way girls communicate.

Boy: want to go out with me?
Girl: um, maybe I don't know.

Boy: didn't get told no, so thinks he should keep asking.

Boy: So, want to go out Friday night?
Girl: Welllll ... I think I'm busy Friday
Boy: Oh. So want to go out Saturday?
Girl: I'm babysitting.

Boy: didn't get told she doesn't WANT to go on a date, so thinks it's just a scheduling conflict.

I had to explain to him that girls are taught not to say no, and if he doesn't get a firm yes after two asks, he needs to mentally hear a "no" and move on. If the girl wanted to date him, she would say "I'm babysitting, but I could do something Saturday afternoon/next Friday night."

*Yes, I know they don't really date anymore. It's an old-fashioned example.

Exactly. I also remember the day my son realized that girls can have whole conversations amongst each other without using words. He was flabbergasted when a girl "translated" an exchange they saw between two other girls. He said "It took about three paragraphs worth of words to explain, but the silent exchange was less than two seconds!"

The communications gap is real.