Anonymous wrote:But this:
"I’m not asking anyone to master English but at least be on grade level before you think you can effectively tackle another language. "

doesn't work for a school system where you play the lottery for three-year-olds. There is no "on grade level" for three year olds.

Of course not but it’s easy to predict which kids will do better in school than others. Looks like you have not done any reading into this so let me spell it out for you:

SES
Education level of parents esp mother
Stable family structure with both parents in house and active in child’s education
Family support and high values placed on education
Books at home and reading to the child on daily basis
Spanish is parents native language


These are just some predictors. There are lesser others. So if the child does not have a few of the predictors above, best not to put the kid in a language immersion school. Even with predictors above, have the resources and money for extra tutoring in case the child needs it.

Lower SES families are not stupid. If they are not sure that their child will do well in school, they are not going to set their child up for failure with a more challenging curriculum. The kid needs to be competent in English before considering another language. Look at the DCPS schools with both a traditional and language immersion track. Traditional track predominantly lower SES. Language track predominantly higher SES.

I’m not saying all lower SES kids will not do well. There will be a few outliers that might. But statistically, most won’t do well in not only ELA but also Spanish. Look at the immersion school with the most at risk kids which also has the lowest percentage of students at grade level in ELA. Not a coincidence.

Lastly, if you find your child is not doing well in ELA at an immersion school, high probability they are not doing well in Spanish either, especially if there is no native Spanish speaking parents. So pull the child out and put them in your IB school or another traditional track school. Easy enough then to let your child continue to struggle endlessly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Better Question, perhaps even a new thread - how do schools determine Free and Reduced Lunch Status or simply the Socioeconomic Status of it’s students? My kid has been in Charter and Public schools for now over 9 years and I have never received a form or survey or anything asking that information. How do Public’s and Charters even know?

I don’t have a kid at Burroughs but I imagine with the large amount of gentrification and the constant elimination of public housing in the Brookland neighborhood that the school population reflects that change. Am I wrong to assume this? The population of Brookland has changed over the years and Burroughs should have too.? Maybe?

Thing is what happens repeatedly is that even if the neighborhood changes dcps becomes disproportionate educator of those not part of the new wave. Hence segregation of schools. Brookland’s demographics have changed; the newcomers use the charter schools much more. Also some still in private Catholic schools etc, that’s how the black middle and upper middle classes used to (and still often do) educate their kids in the neighborhood. This is every part of DC, look even at Cap Hill. We have a big problem and no visionary or really big enough solutions are being offered. Burroughs is therefore fighting uphill battle. Some may also be out of bounds too.

This is true. Many of the black middle and upper middle class have always and will continue to do private independents or Catholic.

But this:
"I’m not asking anyone to master English but at least be on grade level before you think you can effectively tackle another language. "

doesn't work for a school system where you play the lottery for three-year-olds. There is no "on grade level" for three year olds.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Did you tour P street? That building is amazing. I find it odd you’d be unimpressed by it yet down with Burroughs building. Also I find it odd you didn’t apply to 8th street which would’ve simplified your commute etc. In general I’m not clear what you’re after - it’s like you’re too good for P street and it’s open air drug market but fine with Burroughs which may not have any aftercare (500/month for a college student may not even be possible) and also is near our very own target practice zone in Brookland.

How do you know OP didn't apply to MV 8th Street? Perhaps they didn't get in...

That’s not really possible, P street has a fraction of the openings of MV8.

Maybe they got a really good master number?

OP here. Uh, we did apply to 8th street, but we listed in order of true preference at the time, and we put MV P Street higher because it was an already-established location. Honestly, I didn't think we would get in to P Street. I thought we *might* have a chance at MV8.

And for everyone dragging Burroughs, have *you* been inside it? Have you met the teachers or the PTO leadership? I have. I will admit that I judged Burroughs pretty hard from the outside and from neighborhood gossip. But when I visited, I was pleasantly surprised. The PK3 and PK4 spaces are really nice. And the music room was very impressive. MV doesn't even have a music room. I'm not saying Burroughs is better, just that it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Thank you for everyone who spent the time to share a thoughtful, compassionate response.

Sure but bottom line is parents would put their child in a highly performing dingy school any day over a poorly performing school with decent facilities. Look at the millions and millions of dollars spent renovating the EOTP high schools. You think anyone is saying I’ll put Johnny in that beautiful renovated school? Nope not going to happen.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark, performance-wise. Sure, MV has 4 stars/67.2 score compared to Burroughs' 3 stars/58.7 rating, but Burroughs also has an at-risk population of almost 50%, whereas MV's at risk population is around 10%. I'm not sure the delta is that impressive, given the difference in student body. This is not to dog MV at all, and if dual language is your goal, it's a good option (and I know a lot of lovely families who send their kids there, if you are into anecdata!), but I wouldn't assume the quality of the education is necessarily better than what you would receive at Burroughs.

OP--did you make a decision yet?

Here is the bottom line. If your child is above average or advanced, to many parents, race, economic status, at risk or not doesn’t matter. We could care less. What we care about is peer group. What percentage of students are at least at grade level or above. For this correlates directly with how small or big the academic gap in the classroom. For realistically, if you have kids 3 or 4 grade levels apart, especially if the bottom are a majority of >70%, low or no chance your child’s academic needs will be met.

The academic competence of DC kids are terribly low. Sure poverty plays a factor. But there has not been significant change in the achievement gap in the last decade and there likely won’t be now either.

Yes, in addition the kids at MV are not only learning the traditional stuff the Burroughs kids are learning. On top of that, they are learning not only fluency but also vocabulary, reading, writing, etc.. in Spanish. And 50% their classroom learning time from 1st grade on is in Spanish. So throw that into the equation if you really want to make a more accurate comparison. Then tell us how the delta is.

If MV kids are spending 50% less time in class studying English, just increase their ELA scores by 50% or decrease Burroughs score by 50%, problem solved! LOL.

DCPS’s school rating is worthless. Also, kids who can’t even score a 4 on ELA and be competent at grade level in English should not be in a language immersion school. I’m not asking anyone to master English but at least be on grade level before you think you can effectively tackle another language.

This above is why overall language immersion schools attract less lower SES poor, at risk, and minorities who tend to be weaker academically. It’s also why they tend to attract more middle class families - the more challenging curriculum. The kids are learning reading, writing, spelling in not 1 but 2 languages. Their English exposure is 50% less than the traditional curriculum.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you tour P street? That building is amazing. I find it odd you’d be unimpressed by it yet down with Burroughs building. Also I find it odd you didn’t apply to 8th street which would’ve simplified your commute etc. In general I’m not clear what you’re after - it’s like you’re too good for P street and it’s open air drug market but fine with Burroughs which may not have any aftercare (500/month for a college student may not even be possible) and also is near our very own target practice zone in Brookland.

How do you know OP didn't apply to MV 8th Street? Perhaps they didn't get in...

That’s not really possible, P street has a fraction of the openings of MV8.

Maybe they got a really good master number?

OP here. Uh, we did apply to 8th street, but we listed in order of true preference at the time, and we put MV P Street higher because it was an already-established location. Honestly, I didn't think we would get in to P Street. I thought we *might* have a chance at MV8.

And for everyone dragging Burroughs, have *you* been inside it? Have you met the teachers or the PTO leadership? I have. I will admit that I judged Burroughs pretty hard from the outside and from neighborhood gossip. But when I visited, I was pleasantly surprised. The PK3 and PK4 spaces are really nice. And the music room was very impressive. MV doesn't even have a music room. I'm not saying Burroughs is better, just that it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Thank you for everyone who spent the time to share a thoughtful, compassionate response.

Sure but bottom line is parents would put their child in a highly performing dingy school any day over a poorly performing school with decent facilities. Look at the millions and millions of dollars spent renovating the EOTP high schools. You think anyone is saying I’ll put Johnny in that beautiful renovated school? Nope not going to happen.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark, performance-wise. Sure, MV has 4 stars/67.2 score compared to Burroughs' 3 stars/58.7 rating, but Burroughs also has an at-risk population of almost 50%, whereas MV's at risk population is around 10%. I'm not sure the delta is that impressive, given the difference in student body. This is not to dog MV at all, and if dual language is your goal, it's a good option (and I know a lot of lovely families who send their kids there, if you are into anecdata!), but I wouldn't assume the quality of the education is necessarily better than what you would receive at Burroughs.

OP--did you make a decision yet?

Here is the bottom line. If your child is above average or advanced, to many parents, race, economic status, at risk or not doesn’t matter. We could care less. What we care about is peer group. What percentage of students are at least at grade level or above. For this correlates directly with how small or big the academic gap in the classroom. For realistically, if you have kids 3 or 4 grade levels apart, especially if the bottom are a majority of >70%, low or no chance your child’s academic needs will be met.

The academic competence of DC kids are terribly low. Sure poverty plays a factor. But there has not been significant change in the achievement gap in the last decade and there likely won’t be now either.

Yes, in addition the kids at MV are not only learning the traditional stuff the Burroughs kids are learning. On top of that, they are learning not only fluency but also vocabulary, reading, writing, etc.. in Spanish. And 50% their classroom learning time from 1st grade on is in Spanish. So throw that into the equation if you really want to make a more accurate comparison. Then tell us how the delta is.

If MV kids are spending 50% less time in class studying English, just increase their ELA scores by 50% or decrease Burroughs score by 50%, problem solved! LOL.

DCPS’s school rating is worthless. Also, kids who can’t even score a 4 on ELA and be competent at grade level in English should not be in a language immersion school. I’m not asking anyone to master English but at least be on grade level before you think you can effectively tackle another language.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Better Question, perhaps even a new thread - how do schools determine Free and Reduced Lunch Status or simply the Socioeconomic Status of it’s students? My kid has been in Charter and Public schools for now over 9 years and I have never received a form or survey or anything asking that information. How do Public’s and Charters even know?

I don’t have a kid at Burroughs but I imagine with the large amount of gentrification and the constant elimination of public housing in the Brookland neighborhood that the school population reflects that change. Am I wrong to assume this? The population of Brookland has changed over the years and Burroughs should have too.? Maybe?

Thing is what happens repeatedly is that even if the neighborhood changes dcps becomes disproportionate educator of those not part of the new wave. Hence segregation of schools. Brookland’s demographics have changed; the newcomers use the charter schools much more. Also some still in private Catholic schools etc, that’s how the black middle and upper middle classes used to (and still often do) educate their kids in the neighborhood. This is every part of DC, look even at Cap Hill. We have a big problem and no visionary or really big enough solutions are being offered. Burroughs is therefore fighting uphill battle. Some may also be out of bounds too.

Blame DCPS for the problems above. They don’t care to challenge the kids above grade level. For they will be fine. That’s their message again and again to families so why wouldn’t they leave DCPS?

If the neighborhood schools offered either G & T in elementary and multiple level classes in middle and high school like our neighbors and much of the rest of the country, middle class families would be more willing to go to their IB school.

Anonymous wrote:A Better Question, perhaps even a new thread - how do schools determine Free and Reduced Lunch Status or simply the Socioeconomic Status of it’s students? My kid has been in Charter and Public schools for now over 9 years and I have never received a form or survey or anything asking that information. How do Public’s and Charters even know?

I don’t have a kid at Burroughs but I imagine with the large amount of gentrification and the constant elimination of public housing in the Brookland neighborhood that the school population reflects that change. Am I wrong to assume this? The population of Brookland has changed over the years and Burroughs should have too.? Maybe?

Thing is what happens repeatedly is that even if the neighborhood changes dcps becomes disproportionate educator of those not part of the new wave. Hence segregation of schools. Brookland’s demographics have changed; the newcomers use the charter schools much more. Also some still in private Catholic schools etc, that’s how the black middle and upper middle classes used to (and still often do) educate their kids in the neighborhood. This is every part of DC, look even at Cap Hill. We have a big problem and no visionary or really big enough solutions are being offered. Burroughs is therefore fighting uphill battle. Some may also be out of bounds too.

Anonymous wrote:A Better Question, perhaps even a new thread - how do schools determine Free and Reduced Lunch Status or simply the Socioeconomic Status of it’s students? My kid has been in Charter and Public schools for now over 9 years and I have never received a form or survey or anything asking that information. How do Public’s and Charters even know?

I don’t have a kid at Burroughs but I imagine with the large amount of gentrification and the constant elimination of public housing in the Brookland neighborhood that the school population reflects that change. Am I wrong to assume this? The population of Brookland has changed over the years and Burroughs should have too.? Maybe?

https://dcps.dc.gov/farm

If it is over 40% all kids get free lunch, so you would not be asked for your status.

A Better Question, perhaps even a new thread - how do schools determine Free and Reduced Lunch Status or simply the Socioeconomic Status of it’s students? My kid has been in Charter and Public schools for now over 9 years and I have never received a form or survey or anything asking that information. How do Public’s and Charters even know?

I don’t have a kid at Burroughs but I imagine with the large amount of gentrification and the constant elimination of public housing in the Brookland neighborhood that the school population reflects that change. Am I wrong to assume this? The population of Brookland has changed over the years and Burroughs should have too.? Maybe?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you tour P street? That building is amazing. I find it odd you’d be unimpressed by it yet down with Burroughs building. Also I find it odd you didn’t apply to 8th street which would’ve simplified your commute etc. In general I’m not clear what you’re after - it’s like you’re too good for P street and it’s open air drug market but fine with Burroughs which may not have any aftercare (500/month for a college student may not even be possible) and also is near our very own target practice zone in Brookland.

How do you know OP didn't apply to MV 8th Street? Perhaps they didn't get in...

That’s not really possible, P street has a fraction of the openings of MV8.

Maybe they got a really good master number?

OP here. Uh, we did apply to 8th street, but we listed in order of true preference at the time, and we put MV P Street higher because it was an already-established location. Honestly, I didn't think we would get in to P Street. I thought we *might* have a chance at MV8.

And for everyone dragging Burroughs, have *you* been inside it? Have you met the teachers or the PTO leadership? I have. I will admit that I judged Burroughs pretty hard from the outside and from neighborhood gossip. But when I visited, I was pleasantly surprised. The PK3 and PK4 spaces are really nice. And the music room was very impressive. MV doesn't even have a music room. I'm not saying Burroughs is better, just that it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Thank you for everyone who spent the time to share a thoughtful, compassionate response.

Sure but bottom line is parents would put their child in a highly performing dingy school any day over a poorly performing school with decent facilities. Look at the millions and millions of dollars spent renovating the EOTP high schools. You think anyone is saying I’ll put Johnny in that beautiful renovated school? Nope not going to happen.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark, performance-wise. Sure, MV has 4 stars/67.2 score compared to Burroughs' 3 stars/58.7 rating, but Burroughs also has an at-risk population of almost 50%, whereas MV's at risk population is around 10%. I'm not sure the delta is that impressive, given the difference in student body. This is not to dog MV at all, and if dual language is your goal, it's a good option (and I know a lot of lovely families who send their kids there, if you are into anecdata!), but I wouldn't assume the quality of the education is necessarily better than what you would receive at Burroughs.

OP--did you make a decision yet?

Here is the bottom line. If your child is above average or advanced, to many parents, race, economic status, at risk or not doesn’t matter. We could care less. What we care about is peer group. What percentage of students are at least at grade level or above. For this correlates directly with how small or big the academic gap in the classroom. For realistically, if you have kids 3 or 4 grade levels apart, especially if the bottom are a majority of >70%, low or no chance your child’s academic needs will be met.

The academic competence of DC kids are terribly low. Sure poverty plays a factor. But there has not been significant change in the achievement gap in the last decade and there likely won’t be now either.

THIS. Your stats only prove the point. Certainly Burroughs is doing fine with those kids it has - a higher need population. But I don’t want to have low performing kids be the majority at my child’s school, period. Especially in the upper grades. It is a very hard nut to crack. That said I know it’s a chicken and egg issue and have a friend whose child is going into K there and said their peers are all moving to MV8 so sadly losing a lot of his cohort. Charters may indeed suck away the higher performing demographic. It’s hard to argue against the parent though who has to make this choice. We are stuck in this cycle in DC.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you tour P street? That building is amazing. I find it odd you’d be unimpressed by it yet down with Burroughs building. Also I find it odd you didn’t apply to 8th street which would’ve simplified your commute etc. In general I’m not clear what you’re after - it’s like you’re too good for P street and it’s open air drug market but fine with Burroughs which may not have any aftercare (500/month for a college student may not even be possible) and also is near our very own target practice zone in Brookland.

How do you know OP didn't apply to MV 8th Street? Perhaps they didn't get in...

That’s not really possible, P street has a fraction of the openings of MV8.

Maybe they got a really good master number?

OP here. Uh, we did apply to 8th street, but we listed in order of true preference at the time, and we put MV P Street higher because it was an already-established location. Honestly, I didn't think we would get in to P Street. I thought we *might* have a chance at MV8.

And for everyone dragging Burroughs, have *you* been inside it? Have you met the teachers or the PTO leadership? I have. I will admit that I judged Burroughs pretty hard from the outside and from neighborhood gossip. But when I visited, I was pleasantly surprised. The PK3 and PK4 spaces are really nice. And the music room was very impressive. MV doesn't even have a music room. I'm not saying Burroughs is better, just that it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Thank you for everyone who spent the time to share a thoughtful, compassionate response.

Sure but bottom line is parents would put their child in a highly performing dingy school any day over a poorly performing school with decent facilities. Look at the millions and millions of dollars spent renovating the EOTP high schools. You think anyone is saying I’ll put Johnny in that beautiful renovated school? Nope not going to happen.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark, performance-wise. Sure, MV has 4 stars/67.2 score compared to Burroughs' 3 stars/58.7 rating, but Burroughs also has an at-risk population of almost 50%, whereas MV's at risk population is around 10%. I'm not sure the delta is that impressive, given the difference in student body. This is not to dog MV at all, and if dual language is your goal, it's a good option (and I know a lot of lovely families who send their kids there, if you are into anecdata!), but I wouldn't assume the quality of the education is necessarily better than what you would receive at Burroughs.

OP--did you make a decision yet?

Here is the bottom line. If your child is above average or advanced, to many parents, race, economic status, at risk or not doesn’t matter. We could care less. What we care about is peer group. What percentage of students are at least at grade level or above. For this correlates directly with how small or big the academic gap in the classroom. For realistically, if you have kids 3 or 4 grade levels apart, especially if the bottom are a majority of >70%, low or no chance your child’s academic needs will be met.

The academic competence of DC kids are terribly low. Sure poverty plays a factor. But there has not been significant change in the achievement gap in the last decade and there likely won’t be now either.

Yes, in addition the kids at MV are not only learning the traditional stuff the Burroughs kids are learning. On top of that, they are learning not only fluency but also vocabulary, reading, writing, etc.. in Spanish. And 50% their classroom learning time from 1st grade on is in Spanish. So throw that into the equation if you really want to make a more accurate comparison. Then tell us how the delta is.

Anonymous wrote:I’m a brookland parent too, and even though MV is a shit show, I’d go for it and if I didn’t like it I’d switch for Burroughs next year.

That’s because Burroughs is much more of a shit show at the upper grades. We all know that if the Burroughs parents were given the choice between Burroughs and MV, they would take MV. Most of the parents at Burroughs had bad lottery numbers and making the best they can out of what they have. They are also playing the lottery every year to try to get a spot at a better school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you tour P street? That building is amazing. I find it odd you’d be unimpressed by it yet down with Burroughs building. Also I find it odd you didn’t apply to 8th street which would’ve simplified your commute etc. In general I’m not clear what you’re after - it’s like you’re too good for P street and it’s open air drug market but fine with Burroughs which may not have any aftercare (500/month for a college student may not even be possible) and also is near our very own target practice zone in Brookland.

How do you know OP didn't apply to MV 8th Street? Perhaps they didn't get in...

That’s not really possible, P street has a fraction of the openings of MV8.

Maybe they got a really good master number?

OP here. Uh, we did apply to 8th street, but we listed in order of true preference at the time, and we put MV P Street higher because it was an already-established location. Honestly, I didn't think we would get in to P Street. I thought we *might* have a chance at MV8.

And for everyone dragging Burroughs, have *you* been inside it? Have you met the teachers or the PTO leadership? I have. I will admit that I judged Burroughs pretty hard from the outside and from neighborhood gossip. But when I visited, I was pleasantly surprised. The PK3 and PK4 spaces are really nice. And the music room was very impressive. MV doesn't even have a music room. I'm not saying Burroughs is better, just that it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Thank you for everyone who spent the time to share a thoughtful, compassionate response.

Sure but bottom line is parents would put their child in a highly performing dingy school any day over a poorly performing school with decent facilities. Look at the millions and millions of dollars spent renovating the EOTP high schools. You think anyone is saying I’ll put Johnny in that beautiful renovated school? Nope not going to happen.

I'm not sure the difference is that stark, performance-wise. Sure, MV has 4 stars/67.2 score compared to Burroughs' 3 stars/58.7 rating, but Burroughs also has an at-risk population of almost 50%, whereas MV's at risk population is around 10%. I'm not sure the delta is that impressive, given the difference in student body. This is not to dog MV at all, and if dual language is your goal, it's a good option (and I know a lot of lovely families who send their kids there, if you are into anecdata!), but I wouldn't assume the quality of the education is necessarily better than what you would receive at Burroughs.

OP--did you make a decision yet?

Here is the bottom line. If your child is above average or advanced, to many parents, race, economic status, at risk or not doesn’t matter. We could care less. What we care about is peer group. What percentage of students are at least at grade level or above. For this correlates directly with how small or big the academic gap in the classroom. For realistically, if you have kids 3 or 4 grade levels apart, especially if the bottom are a majority of >70%, low or no chance your child’s academic needs will be met.

The academic competence of DC kids are terribly low. Sure poverty plays a factor. But there has not been significant change in the achievement gap in the last decade and there likely won’t be now either.

Why? If it’s a shit show? Because it’s whiter?