Anonymous
Post 07/31/2019 10:30     Subject: Re:Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:An IQ of 120 puts a person in the 90th percentile for intelligence. While the NNAT and the CogAT are not IQ tests, they are meant to be proxies. A child that scores 120 on the CogAT is well above average intelligence and will probably do just fine in AAP. It is hardly an awful score.

The committee is using test scores as well as class room behavior and work to try and determine who might benefit from AAP. A kid with a 140 test score and poor class work and motivation in class might be really bright but not do well in AAP because they don't seem to be motivated in the classroom. A kid with 120 and excellent classwork and showing motivation in class might not be as intelligent as the kid with the 140 but gives the appearance of being motivated and probably in a good place to do well in AAP.

The process is not perfect but there is far more grey area in the selection process then people here want to acknowledge. test scores are one indicator of intelligence but that does not equate with being a good fit in AAP.

And there are folks who are far more driven to get their kid into AAP because they are at lower performing schools and want to move their kids into AAP because they hope to surround their kids with other kids that appear to be motivated to learn. And their are folks who are less concerned about AAP because the base school is solid and the parents are less worried about the education their kid is going to receive. And then there are the parents who see AAP as a status symbol.


These are exactly the kids that gifted programs are for. And while Fairfax has changed the name of the GT program, it still does serve these kids, better in some center schools than others.
Anonymous
Post 07/31/2019 10:24     Subject: Re:Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:An IQ of 120 puts a person in the 90th percentile for intelligence. While the NNAT and the CogAT are not IQ tests, they are meant to be proxies. A child that scores 120 on the CogAT is well above average intelligence and will probably do just fine in AAP. It is hardly an awful score.

The committee is using test scores as well as class room behavior and work to try and determine who might benefit from AAP. A kid with a 140 test score and poor class work and motivation in class might be really bright but not do well in AAP because they don't seem to be motivated in the classroom. A kid with 120 and excellent classwork and showing motivation in class might not be as intelligent as the kid with the 140 but gives the appearance of being motivated and probably in a good place to do well in AAP.

The process is not perfect but there is far more grey area in the selection process then people here want to acknowledge. test scores are one indicator of intelligence but that does not equate with being a good fit in AAP.

And there are folks who are far more driven to get their kid into AAP because they are at lower performing schools and want to move their kids into AAP because they hope to surround their kids with other kids that appear to be motivated to learn. And their are folks who are less concerned about AAP because the base school is solid and the parents are less worried about the education their kid is going to receive. And then there are the parents who see AAP as a status symbol.





Kids with 120-129 IQs are actually in that golden range where they are more likely to excel in many environments--they will often lead in the regular school environment and be challenged in advanced academics. These are the kids private schools often really want in their admissions tests.

The thing is there is federal regulation that schools need to address the educational needs of 'gifted' students, typically defined by being 2 SD over the norm on an IQ test or proxy (so above 130). These kids are not as likely to always do well because higher IQs can make you a mismatch for many education environments. Fairfax is trying to have its AAP program meet that requirement to serve "gifted students" but not call it that and so plenty of kids would do fine in the AAP program with scores in the 120s. But the kid with 140+ IQ often has mismatched thinking/odd quirks that can make learning in traditional environment harder even though they may have more "intellectual capacity" . It's important (and required) to ensure that these kids get appropriate supports. I worry when I hear AAP teachers thinking kids that struggle are the problem--because it may be the highly gifted kids that are struggling because the environment is more suited to a basically bright hard-working kid, not a kid with a higher IQ who tends to overthink, to have divergent ideas, to obsess on an area of interest etc.
Anonymous
Post 07/31/2019 09:36     Subject: Re:Not gifted, but wants to learn
An IQ of 120 puts a person in the 90th percentile for intelligence. While the NNAT and the CogAT are not IQ tests, they are meant to be proxies. A child that scores 120 on the CogAT is well above average intelligence and will probably do just fine in AAP. It is hardly an awful score.

The committee is using test scores as well as class room behavior and work to try and determine who might benefit from AAP. A kid with a 140 test score and poor class work and motivation in class might be really bright but not do well in AAP because they don't seem to be motivated in the classroom. A kid with 120 and excellent classwork and showing motivation in class might not be as intelligent as the kid with the 140 but gives the appearance of being motivated and probably in a good place to do well in AAP.

The process is not perfect but there is far more grey area in the selection process then people here want to acknowledge. test scores are one indicator of intelligence but that does not equate with being a good fit in AAP.

And there are folks who are far more driven to get their kid into AAP because they are at lower performing schools and want to move their kids into AAP because they hope to surround their kids with other kids that appear to be motivated to learn. And their are folks who are less concerned about AAP because the base school is solid and the parents are less worried about the education their kid is going to receive. And then there are the parents who see AAP as a status symbol.



Anonymous
Post 07/31/2019 09:15     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:By definition only 2% of kids in FCPS are gifted. And it’s not a given those kids are even in aap.


Depends on your definition, I guess.


It’s not my definition. Gifted is the top 2%. If you are letting in the top 20% of a population it’s not a gifted program. And it’s not a program full of gifted kids. Roughly 90% of those aap kids are not gifted.


That's your definition. The tests are normed so that there are scores that are two standard deviations above the mean. That's the definition that Fairfax uses. And everyone else too.


+1 A higher percentage of FCPS students are 2+ standard deviation over the mean than would be the national average. Look at the local percentages vs. national percentages associated with scores. Not surprising given that many people relocate here for high level professional positions and the average education level is post graduate. Sure, some kids in AAP have scores below, but overall the average score is more than 2 standard deviations above the national normed mean. This is the federal definition of "gifted" --the level at which schools are required to provide services to meet educational need. Don't believe all the DCUM crap and parent gossip.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 18:37     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
It's not called "gifted" anymore in FCPS. It's advanced academics, which is different. So imo the motivated smart student has just as much right to be there as the unmotivated gifted student. And as an AAP elementary teacher, I see plenty of kids who should not be in the program (whether it's called gifted or advanced academics), but they have nevertheless been placed there for reasons passing understanding. For those who don't belong and are struggling, that means their needs aren't being appropriately met. Yes, we do differentiation to try and meet everyone's needs as best we can, but some kids should not have been placed there to begin with. So if you have a motivated above average kid, he or she should be fine in the program.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 17:14     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:By definition only 2% of kids in FCPS are gifted. And it’s not a given those kids are even in aap.


Depends on your definition, I guess.


It’s not my definition. Gifted is the top 2%. If you are letting in the top 20% of a population it’s not a gifted program. And it’s not a program full of gifted kids. Roughly 90% of those aap kids are not gifted.


That's your definition. The tests are normed so that there are scores that are two standard deviations above the mean. That's the definition that Fairfax uses. And everyone else too.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 16:44     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:By definition only 2% of kids in FCPS are gifted. And it’s not a given those kids are even in aap.


Depends on your definition, I guess.


It’s not my definition. Gifted is the top 2%. If you are letting in the top 20% of a population it’s not a gifted program. And it’s not a program full of gifted kids. Roughly 90% of those aap kids are not gifted.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 11:56     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Being obedient and following teacher instructions to the t are not going to result in a high GBRS. If anything, doing those things will make a child look as though he has not a speck of creativity and only knows how to do what he is told.


There's no secret sauce to getting a high GBRS. It's so dependent on the 2nd grade teacher and how she views your child. The people who really want to game the GBRS are going to have their kids in kumon, so they look especially advanced compared to kids not getting tutoring.


Yes, except if the children talk about their after school tutoring classes during the regular school day- then the teacher will know they actually aren’t as advanced as they might appear. A teacher won’t be that impressed by a child who is only “advanced” because of going to outside tutoring classes. So, that can backfire on the parent.


I agree this backfires. Our AART in fact showed us a bad face when we said our child is doing 4th grade math in a tutoring class. So, enrichment is great but please do not share it with teachers.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 10:46     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:I don't think my son is gifted, but he has incredible executive function skills and loves to work hard. He is a rising second grader and said school was too boring last year and he hopes it is harder next year. Over the summer, he wanted to learn 2nd and 3rd grade math, so we're currently on multiplication and division.
I really feel like he would benefit from being in the AAP program, though his NNAT score was just around 120. What are the chances that a child that is not actually gifted, but interested in working hard and learning, can be placed in the AAP program? My older daughter has learning disabilities, so this is all new to me.


A lot of people will tell you not to prep, but the Cogat and the NNAT are preppable, just like the SATs. So prep. Because it doesn't really measure IQ: it measures the ability to answer a specific style of question. You can do free tests on testingmom.com and other websites. It's a lot cheaper than getting a WISC too and if your kid doesn't get in, even with prepping, then you know for a fact that he isn't gifted. There is no doubt then.

You could also talk to the principal of your school. Most likely, class assignments have been made, but letting the admin know your kid is bored will help. Ask them for help in helping your kid be less bored is also a good strategy.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 09:54     Subject: Re:Not gifted, but wants to learn
Should a child who isn’t gifted who is an eager but average learner get a spot over a gifted but unmotivated kid. Let’s say the former means you can teach the child things and he willingly learns them, maybe in an average amount of time, but he’s not innovative in his thoughts. Let’s also say that the gifted kid sees things differently and in an innovative way.

FWIW - this is NOT about my family. Mine are both in aap and high scores.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 08:36     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:We had a pretty simple observation in the second grade. All kids who had behavioral issues such as talking during class and not following teacher’s instructions were automatically given motivation to succeed Occasionally. AARTs don’t want such children.

Many children who do well in NNAT and are doing great during 1st grade are in for a surprise because boys and girls develop their personalities and experiment with breaking school and class rules during 2nd grade. So in a way lower NNAT score is a blessings in disguise because it alerts you on how to prepare.

We noticed that a classroom parents children were given extremely high GBRS. Another issue we noticed was that the teacher gave a very high GBRS to a fellow teacher’s child who had a low NNAT and a low Cogat score.


How do you know all of these test scores and GBRS?
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2019 08:16     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
We had a pretty simple observation in the second grade. All kids who had behavioral issues such as talking during class and not following teacher’s instructions were automatically given motivation to succeed Occasionally. AARTs don’t want such children.

Many children who do well in NNAT and are doing great during 1st grade are in for a surprise because boys and girls develop their personalities and experiment with breaking school and class rules during 2nd grade. So in a way lower NNAT score is a blessings in disguise because it alerts you on how to prepare.

We noticed that a classroom parents children were given extremely high GBRS. Another issue we noticed was that the teacher gave a very high GBRS to a fellow teacher’s child who had a low NNAT and a low Cogat score.
Anonymous
Post 07/29/2019 14:32     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Being obedient and following teacher instructions to the t are not going to result in a high GBRS. If anything, doing those things will make a child look as though he has not a speck of creativity and only knows how to do what he is told.


There's no secret sauce to getting a high GBRS. It's so dependent on the 2nd grade teacher and how she views your child. The people who really want to game the GBRS are going to have their kids in kumon, so they look especially advanced compared to kids not getting tutoring.


Yes, except if the children talk about their after school tutoring classes during the regular school day- then the teacher will know they actually aren’t as advanced as they might appear. A teacher won’t be that impressed by a child who is only “advanced” because of going to outside tutoring classes. So, that can backfire on the parent.
Anonymous
Post 07/29/2019 08:54     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:
Being obedient and following teacher instructions to the t are not going to result in a high GBRS. If anything, doing those things will make a child look as though he has not a speck of creativity and only knows how to do what he is told.


There's no secret sauce to getting a high GBRS. It's so dependent on the 2nd grade teacher and how she views your child. The people who really want to game the GBRS are going to have their kids in kumon, so they look especially advanced compared to kids not getting tutoring.
Anonymous
Post 07/29/2019 08:52     Subject: Not gifted, but wants to learn
Anonymous wrote:NP here. I have two children. I'm of the mindset: do not impede, do not promote. That is why I won't prep.


I used to agree with this line of reasoning. I didn't prep my child and then didn't parent refer for AAP when my child barely missed the cutoff. What happened is that a bunch of kids who had lower scores and lower academic achievements than my child left for the center, including every child in my child's reading group and most of the ones in the advanced math class. For third grade, my child couldn't even access an above grade level reading group, since there weren't enough advanced readers left at the base school to form one. So, they had to bump her down a level for reading.

If everyone else is promoting their children, whether through prepping, good parent packets, and focusing on AAP, and then nearly everyone with kids scoring 90th percentile and higher is parent referring, your 97th percentile kid will end up not having a peer group in gen ed after all of those other kids head to AAP.

I understand your viewpoint, but it's very naive.