Anonymous wrote:You cannot Kumon your way into being a top competitor in Mathcounts. All of the kids at the top nationally have a talent for math. Most of them probably love math as well.

I will agree with this. And, like anything, kids are more likely to participate if their parents choose that path for them. There seems to be a cultural bias towards certain activities, many White families choose sports type programs for their kids when they are younger. Many Asian families choose academic enrichment programs for their kids. Based on the posts I have read on this site, both groups think that the other is crazy for their choices.

(shrugs)

I suspect that there are plenty of non-Asian kids who would do well in something like Mathcounts if they put the time in but it is not a point of emphasis for their families. I suspect that there are plenty of Asian kids who would do just fine in athletics if they put the time in but it is not a point of emphasis for their families.

I don't think for a second that there is one race/culture that has superior academic genetics or superior athletic genetics. I do think that specific cultures place more emphasis on different activities and that leads to families making different choices for their kids.

If your child loves math and is happy going for extra tutoring and competing in tournaments, awesome. Enjoy. If your kid loves playing sports, awesome. Enjoy.

Neither is a superior path. I know plenty of kids who did not do any type of enrichment in math who ended up with Engineering degrees. I don't see many kids who got ahead in math having a massive advantage by the time they get to College. I don't see many kids who played travel sports in elementary school attending college on full ride scholarships. There will always be the outliers but, for the most part, neither group ends up with a massive advantage in life. I would say the same for the early readers out there. There are benefits to being ahead early in school but, in the end, there is not that much benefit to getting ahead.

My only concern are the kids who are not really interested in excelling in whatever activity their parents are pushing but who have no choice. Those are the kids who end up writing "I don't want to be here/do this/care" on their AP essays. Trust me, I have saw that when I was grading AP exams. That 1 or 2 the kid brings home is essentially their flipping their bird to their parents who pushed them to do something they didn't want to do. They can't slack off on the homework or their school grades, that would make home life miserable. But they can tank their APs or their TJ essays and then blame some anonymous grader/reviewer for their failure to pass or be accepted. And if you don't think some of those amazing kids who are not accepted into TJ did not write that they don't want to go to TJ on their timed essays you are crazy. Those kids are looking forward to a less pressure filled high school experience and are counting on their parents to blame the reviewers because their test scores and grades and recommendations are all amazing.

You cannot Kumon your way into being a top competitor in Mathcounts. All of the kids at the top nationally have a talent for math. Most of them probably love math as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

We’re talking about the stereotyping of tiger parenting. How’s that evidenced by the Asian dominance in Mathcounts and USAMO?
That underlying assumption alone is a stereotype and potentially racist.

Is tiger parenting not an Asian invention? I believe Amy Chua herself said it was.

Asian American make up 6% of the population. Asian American 8th graders make up over half of the top performers in math counts.

Is it not because of tiger parenting?

Is putting your dc in kumon an example of tiger parenting? Is kumon not made up of predominately Asian Americans students?

I do not think recognizing a trend is racist. Let’s blow the cover off this. Putting your kid in kumon works. Making your elementary child study X hours of math a week ahead of their peers sets him up to excel in middle school math. It has little to do with a love of math or a talent for math.

Anonymous wrote:^ I agree, but there's a weird double standard for math. If a dad is playing soccer at the field every day with his 3 year old, people think he's an amazing parent. If parents read to their children every night and force them to do independent reading for an hour each day, that's also great parenting. If people start private music lessons with their 4 year olds and have them playing their violins every day, their talent is celebrated. If a parent wants to do 10 minutes of extra math, then it's OMG, Tiger Parent!!! Stop destroying your child's childhood!

Good observation! But the double standard isn't only on math, it's on Asians. You'll see people apply double standard on pretty much everything Asians do, including college admission and career advancement.

I wish one day Asians would dominate sports (highly doubt it). It’ll be funny to see how people find other ways to bash Asians.

Anonymous wrote:But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

We’re talking about the stereotyping of tiger parenting. How’s that evidenced by the Asian dominance in Mathcounts and USAMO?
That underlying assumption alone is a stereotype and potentially racist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suggest that you pump the brakes and let him be a 7 year-old.

Would you say the same thing about a child who is gifted in sports or music?

It’s not hard to guess why. Because these areas are not dominated by Asians, at least not yet.
That said, I totally understand how people should feel about the situations. But let’s not pretend those people are fair and unbiased

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

A lot of people are turned off by athletic or other competitions, too. It's not exclusive to math.

Mathcounts and USAMO are middle and high school level contests. By that age, many of the kids are pushing themselves in the contests, rather than being pushed strongly by parents. Rather than suggesting that Asian success is from tiger parenting, you could just as easily argue that Asian kids set higher goals and are more focused on achieving them than white kids. Really, though, the elementary school tiger parenting teaches kids to work hard and be able to handle challenges. Those abilities are useful later if the child wants to be elite in any activity.

Elementary school tiger parenting teaches kids to work hard and handle challenges ... and subsequently the kids of such upbringing set higher goals and stay more focused on achieving them. Without the tiger parenting efforts in elementary school, the latter focus that many Asians students develop in middle and high school wouldn't occur. And, in our demographic area, I think many non-Asians are also just as focused at the elementary school level. Maybe they don't emulate Amy Chua, but this ENTIRE area is filled with varying levels of tiger parenting from similar socio-economic profiles, regardless of ethnic background.

I agree. I’d go further and say that non-Asians just don’t or cannot take it as far as Asian parents take it. Why?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

A lot of people are turned off by athletic or other competitions, too. It's not exclusive to math.

Mathcounts and USAMO are middle and high school level contests. By that age, many of the kids are pushing themselves in the contests, rather than being pushed strongly by parents. Rather than suggesting that Asian success is from tiger parenting, you could just as easily argue that Asian kids set higher goals and are more focused on achieving them than white kids. Really, though, the elementary school tiger parenting teaches kids to work hard and be able to handle challenges. Those abilities are useful later if the child wants to be elite in any activity.

Elementary school tiger parenting teaches kids to work hard and handle challenges ... and subsequently the kids of such upbringing set higher goals and stay more focused on achieving them. Without the tiger parenting efforts in elementary school, the latter focus that many Asians students develop in middle and high school wouldn't occur. And, in our demographic area, I think many non-Asians are also just as focused at the elementary school level. Maybe they don't emulate Amy Chua, but this ENTIRE area is filled with varying levels of tiger parenting from similar socio-economic profiles, regardless of ethnic background.

Anonymous wrote:But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

A lot of people are turned off by athletic or other competitions, too. It's not exclusive to math.

Mathcounts and USAMO are middle and high school level contests. By that age, many of the kids are pushing themselves in the contests, rather than being pushed strongly by parents. Rather than suggesting that Asian success is from tiger parenting, you could just as easily argue that Asian kids set higher goals and are more focused on achieving them than white kids. Really, though, the elementary school tiger parenting teaches kids to work hard and be able to handle challenges. Those abilities are useful later if the child wants to be elite in any activity.

Anonymous wrote:I suggest that you pump the brakes and let him be a 7 year-old.

Would you say the same thing about a child who is gifted in sports or music?

But the stereotype is true as evidenced by the national results on mathcounts and USAMO all the way down to the school levels. Nobody is necessarily saying it’s a negative stereotype. Asians are dominating in math contests. To deny that Asian kids are dominating math contests would be ridiculous. To say it’s just because Asians are smarter would be wrong. Saying that a large percentage of Asian parents push their kids in math is true. Visit your nearest kumon and see for yourself.

I think math competition and circles can be great. But I do think a lot of people are turned off by the steep competition. I think a lot of people think pushing a kid so hard to study for a math contest isn’t something they want to do. I think it’s wrong to think it’s wrong though. I don’t think there is anything wrong with insane math practice. Just like there isn’t anything wrong with insane soccer practice. As long as the kid is willing in either case. Once you’ve forced a kid to practice above level math you are crossing a line. But no one ever admits this.

You should check out this thread about Asian bashing https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/822890.page

The gist of it is that white people are upset that Asians are working harder than their kids and as a result out-performing them in academics.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I agree there is natural talent when it comes to the top performers. But it’s like 90% practice and persistence and preparation (AKA tiger mom element) and then among those kids who do this best the amount of natural talent will then separate the 1st place national winner from the 2nd place etc. These kids (like top basketball players) are practicing the most. Hours and hours a day. That’s at least 90% of the equation.

But. Big but. This is concerning contest math. Which is different than actual math.

I kind of agree. For mathcounts nationals, there's maybe a pool of 2000 kids who have the math aptitude to end up in the top 50. Kids below that aren't going to be able to practice or tiger mom their way into that elite group. But among those 2000 kids, the difference maker between making the top 50 and not doing so will be who is practicing the most. I would guess that there are many non-Asian kids among that 2000 who don't think practicing hours per day for mathcounts is a valuable use of their time.

Contest math is different than actual math to some degree. I have yet to encounter a kid who excelled at contest math who wasn't also excelling at actual math. I have encountered many kids who excel at actual math but perform poorly at contests. Those top 50 kids in Mathcounts are almost certainly taking calculus or beyond as 8th graders and have breezed through regular school math.

There are over 3 million 8th graders in the United States. You really think only 2000 kids have the math ability to compete at national level in math? I would say more like 20,000 8th graders have the math ability if not more. I mean surely the top .001 percentile math kids could compete if they put in the hours of practice. But a very small percentage of those that can actually put in the hours and hours and hours a day to be competitive. I also think the nature of math counts, for example, makes speed a real factor which isn’t favoring the deep thinking kids.

Back to the argument at hand. I think when you see Asians dominate a contest it’s because of tiger parenting. Its not meant to offend. It’s just become the shorthand for parents pushing their kids to excel academically by lots and lots of practice. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it! I don’t recall anyone on this thread bashing it. The argument made was that some kids just love math. But only some parents think that a love of math means you have to sign up for math class and study for math contests.

What do you mean by deep thinking math contest (as opposed to speed contest like Mathcounts)? Is USAMO/IMO deep thinking enough? They are dominated by Asians as well. I don’t buy the tiger parenting crap. In this country it seems okay to negatively stereotype Asians at no cost. They don’t say much about blacks only because it’s more costly. Racism never dies in people’s heart.

Anonymous wrote:
There are over 3 million 8th graders in the United States. You really think only 2000 kids have the math ability to compete at national level in math? I would say more like 20,000 8th graders have the math ability if not more. I mean surely the top .001 percentile math kids could compete if they put in the hours of practice. But a very small percentage of those that can actually put in the hours and hours and hours a day to be competitive. I also think the nature of math counts, for example, makes speed a real factor which isn’t favoring the deep thinking kids.

Back to the argument at hand. I think when you see Asians dominate a contest it’s because of tiger parenting. Its not meant to offend. It’s just become the shorthand for parents pushing their kids to excel academically by lots and lots of practice. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it! I don’t recall anyone on this thread bashing it. The argument made was that some kids just love math. But only some parents think that a love of math means you have to sign up for math class and study for math contests.

The speed factor is why I don't think there are that many kids capable of breaking into the top 50 at mathcounts. They have to be top .001 percentile kids in math and they need to have incredible speed. The combination limits a lot of people, and it's why kids who don't do well at contests might still be amazing at actual math.

I'm not sure that tiger parenting is the reason for Asian dominance. I think it's that Asian parents prioritize excellence in one thing over being well-rounded, whereas white parents prioritize the well-roundedness over the excellence. Neither style is inherently superior to the other. My college roommate (Asian) and I both spent about 3 hours per day on extracurriculars. I did math team, debate team, piano, and volleyball. She just played piano. She was leagues beyond me as a pianist because she focused on it while I spent my time elsewhere. We each kind of envied the other person, but neither of us were better or worse off.

I hate to open a can of worms with this, but most of the kids I know who are nationally competitive in math are also on the spectrum. It's one explanation for the intense focus on math that some of these kids have.