I'm a dinosaur baby boomer but I don't remember this at all in school. There were definitely popular girls but they weren't necessarily the sexiest. There were "fast" girls but they often weren't especially popular. There were good students. This whole obsession with "hot" really upsets me.

my favorite is sportiness

Anonymous wrote:The students from Bethesda Chevy Chase High school are going to lower grades to teach them about this. Perhaps you should be in touch and it can spread to other schools in other areas.

The Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/26/teen-boys-rated-their-female-classmates-based-looks-girls-fought-back/?utm_term=.5a1716878ad0

One of the student leaders being interviewed and doing an awesome job:
https://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2019-04-03/can-toxic-high-school-culture-be-stopped-in-the-digital-age

(poster here) I went to the talk show link. God, Alfonso has a bright future as, I don't know, a future Tucker Carlson? But Delgado has a great response. But I just realized as a rep of the toxic right or maybe toxic libertarian Alfonso is really, really twisting the knife here. Makes Brett K look like. . . a Boy Scout.




ALFONSO
Yes, Kojo, it's very good to hear you. And I love this topic. First I'm a long time listener, first time caller. I want to hit on two points. The first point is that the youth that apparently started the list was suspended. I believe that was an egregious punishment for someone just creating a list. Two is the issue of self-esteem. You know, it's self-esteem. It's not, you know, what someone else thinks, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As well as how can we punish someone for having discernment in what they like? I knew of a list that went around when I was in high school. The girls used to grade us on looks, appearance, dress, you know, the whole bit. And we would do the same.



12:13:49



NNAMDI
And you thought that was a good thing?



12:13:54



ALFONSO
Oh, yes, because I grew up in the day where everybody wasn't a winner. You know, it wasn't that you got a participation trophy. No. If you placed first, second, or third you got a trophy. You got a medal. You got an award. There are winners and losers.


12:14:09



NNAMDI
So those things that people can do absolutely nothing about like their looks, you felt it was okay to grade people and essentially discriminate against people, who were not as good looking as the people you graded highly. You thought that was okay?



12:14:25



ALFONSO
I think that looks go a long way to self-esteem. And this is where the parents come in.

-- that last bit, in context, sure SOUNDS like it's on the parents to pass on good looks genes. How, pray tell, does ranking girls "go a long way to self-esteem" ???

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

Not everyone on the list felt bad! The girls who were ranked hot and sporty felt really good!

And you know this HOW? I was talking to a group of girls - who were ranked all over the place in this stupid list, and one who was #1 was probably the most upset about it. She said “why are these stupid boys objectifying me?” Shed a nice kid (not mine), and is cute and very sporty which I think is why she was at the top of the list. Also, she has an older brother who these boys idolize, I think, because he’s super good at sports, which is basically what these 4th graders care about.

Why on earth were you doing this? Focusing on it, making it into a bigger thing than it needs to be?

Because I was supervising them after school and they were all talking about it and asking for my advice. They were all focused on it and I mostly tried to support them and let them know 1) it isn’t ok, 2) they shouldn’t be hurt by it for various reasons, and 3) made sure they were talking with the appropriate people at school (they are). I let their conversation and reactions guide me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

Not everyone on the list felt bad! The girls who were ranked hot and sporty felt really good!

And you know this HOW? I was talking to a group of girls - who were ranked all over the place in this stupid list, and one who was #1 was probably the most upset about it. She said “why are these stupid boys objectifying me?” Shed a nice kid (not mine), and is cute and very sporty which I think is why she was at the top of the list. Also, she has an older brother who these boys idolize, I think, because he’s super good at sports, which is basically what these 4th graders care about.

Why on earth were you doing this? Focusing on it, making it into a bigger thing than it needs to be?

I didn’t say they are ok. I said they are slightly more positive. My daughter had a friend who made a crush book last year and I had a serious talk with dd about how that is inappropriate and I would not be ok with her doing that.

Anonymous wrote:No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

If you are saying crush lists are okay then you are excusing girls, because they tend to be the only ones talking about crushes. Also it's bizarre that you think a "hot" list is painful to the girls ranked on it but a crush list is not painful to boys ranked in a similar manner.

You are really stretching to differentiate and excuse the same awful behavior when it's done by girls.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

Not everyone on the list felt bad! The girls who were ranked hot and sporty felt really good!

And you know this HOW? I was talking to a group of girls - who were ranked all over the place in this stupid list, and one who was #1 was probably the most upset about it. She said “why are these stupid boys objectifying me?” Shed a nice kid (not mine), and is cute and very sporty which I think is why she was at the top of the list. Also, she has an older brother who these boys idolize, I think, because he’s super good at sports, which is basically what these 4th graders care about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great. I'll make a deal with you: I'll teach my boys that things like this are inappropriate to discuss publicly because they hurt people's feelings and that girls - like all human beings -- should ALWAYS be treated with respect. And you teach your girls to toughen up and grow a thicker skin.

Nope. Girls, like other people, should be treated with respect when they earn and deserve respect, which is not "ALWAYS" true.

Disagree with this. All people should be treated with respect, not just those who deserve it or who earn it (how long do you give them before they've earned it?).

Anonymous wrote:No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

Not everyone on the list felt bad! The girls who were ranked hot and sporty felt really good!

Anonymous wrote:They had 3 rankings - one for “hotness” one for “sportiness” and one for “how they act around boys”. They’re all mean-spirited but the one based on looks is absolutely out of line for Anyone.

Is it suddenly a secret that some people are better looking than others?

I guarantee you every kid in that class knows exactly who is good looking and who isn't. They'd probably come up with the same list in the same order if you took them aside and asked them individually to make a list.

You're going to be judged for your looks throughout your entire life. Might as well get used to it at an early age.

Anonymous wrote:Great. I'll make a deal with you: I'll teach my boys that things like this are inappropriate to discuss publicly because they hurt people's feelings and that girls - like all human beings -- should ALWAYS be treated with respect. And you teach your girls to toughen up and grow a thicker skin.

Nope. Girls, like other people, should be treated with respect when they earn and deserve respect, which is not "ALWAYS" true.

No, I’m saying any list is bad but lists made to make people feel badly are worse than lists that name positively people you like. I said nothing about gender or excuses.

Anonymous wrote:They had 3 rankings - one for “hotness” one for “sportiness” and one for “how they act around boys”. They’re all mean-spirited but the one based on looks is absolutely out of line for Anyone.

At least a crush list is based on something positive (if it’s about a personal crush, not speculative).

You are giving the girls a pass, in other words. Crush lists are based on physical appearance. Don't vilify behavior in boys but excuse it in girls. Your distinction is false and only created to excuse the exact same behavior in girls, because boys don't do "crush lists."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, this is the future Brock Turners and Brett Kavanaugh's of the world.

Does #boymom work here? I don't know, I have daughters.

Great. I'll make a deal with you: I'll teach my boys that things like this are inappropriate to discuss publicly because they hurt people's feelings and that girls - like all human beings -- should ALWAYS be treated with respect. And you teach your girls to toughen up and grow a thicker skin.

Brock Turner has a sister... no no boymom here... maybe he saw his parents treat his sister this way and learned it. Nothing to do about being athletic and being allowed to be active.