Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

On multiple threads, you have referred to subsidized parking. What exactly are you referring to and based on what are you calling it subsidized? I am one of the people driving into Bethesda to then go to Metro and I park in a private garage -- how exactly is that subsidized.

I wrote about this upthread - Montgomery County loses lots of money on its parking garages (and so does everyone else). They cost 30-40 million to build and never recover their costs in parking fees and have on-going high maintenance costs. And there is an opportunity cost as the county could sell the land under those garages and get something that instead generates tax revenues.

And that doesn't get into the crazy costs of building and maintaining our roadway system or the many externalities.

Anonymous wrote:The county does not have the money for all the schools that are needed. They are backlogged by billions thanks to over 2,000 new students every year since 2008. But that is not what the OP asked.

So, back to the original question about parking, it is true, the planning board gives more points to developers the less parking spots they build. They want more people taking Transit. Unfortunately, the "don't build a parking spot and they won't have a car" wich is a wish, doesn't actually come true. So, more cars, in more dense areas, and not enough parking. This happens in areas 2 miles from the metro too, because they believe everyone will walk the 2 miles every day to the metro.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

You’re missing the fact that there isn’t sufficient basic infrastructure to support all these new housing units. The elementary schools that would receive the kids in these new housing units are already way over capacity and traffic has already crawled to a standstill. Bethesda needs to upgrade its school and transportation infrastructure before adding more housing near Metro.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

On multiple threads, you have referred to subsidized parking. What exactly are you referring to and based on what are you calling it subsidized? I am one of the people driving into Bethesda to then go to Metro and I park in a private garage -- how exactly is that subsidized.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

You’re missing the fact that there isn’t sufficient basic infrastructure to support all these new housing units. The elementary schools that would receive the kids in these new housing units are already way over capacity and traffic has already crawled to a standstill. Bethesda needs to upgrade its school and transportation infrastructure before adding more housing near Metro.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Agreed. But DC buses are 2$ a ride and the circulator is free so even accounting for some lower population density the Circulator doesn’t have greater ride on numbers. I’ve taken it once or twice with my kids as a “whee-we’re riding on a bus around Bethesda” thing, but as a daily commuter it doesn’t take me anywhere I need to go. I would happily dump the Circulator for much more frequent Ride On buses (every 23 minutes during Rush hour is way too slow.)

The circulator model is a good model. And Ride-on buses generally are not designed for efficiency or convenience - they are designed for coverage.

But the Bethesda circulator route is just stupid - it is basically what you allude to - a gee whiz bus route that is a solution seeking a problem. In this case the solution is short range feed to the Bethesda Metro. But the route is so close to the Metro that most healthy people are going to spend the 5-10 minutes walking rather than waiting for a bus that doesn't get them where they are going any quicker. But a circulator route that ran in understandable straight lines from the Metro to neighborhoods within 2-3 miles ought to work - you have to make the bus more appealing than driving.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

OK but you are wrong about what the bad public policy is.

Bethesda could add thousands of housing units within walking distance of the Metro station (and soon Purple Line) simply by selling the publicly owned parking garages and having them torn down and replaced with housing. The county would make money on this transaction up front and over the long term by shedding money losing parking garages and adding tax generating properties.

WMATA would get higher ridership and Bethesda would get more residents, many of whom would not own cars and would be able to walk for many more of their trips. And the county could lower the price of the garages below market value in exchange for a variety of housing types and prices.

What you are advocating for does not just not reduce emissions it also doesn't address community needs or reduce inequality. And it really doesn't do anything about the what you are actually complaining about which is the NIMBYism of residents who live close to downtown Bethesda.

Again one reason the buses are not reliable is because not enough people are using them - but current policy and the choices that follow from that policy (your choices among them) are the problem.

Upzoning near the Bethesda Metro and eliminating subsidized parking is how the things you claim to care about get resolved - not facilitating more driving by opening streets

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Agreed. But DC buses are 2$ a ride and the circulator is free so even accounting for some lower population density the Circulator doesn’t have greater ride on numbers. I’ve taken it once or twice with my kids as a “whee-we’re riding on a bus around Bethesda” thing, but as a daily commuter it doesn’t take me anywhere I need to go. I would happily dump the Circulator for much more frequent Ride On buses (every 23 minutes during Rush hour is way too slow.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

I'm not the PP, but here's my response: public policy around transportation has to advance multiple objectives. Reducing emissions, yes, but also addressing community needs AND reducing inequality. The lack of parking in downtown Bethesda and the restrictions on driving through the surrounding neighborhoods have basically created gated communities for the one percent. Everyone else in the surrounding area is forced to rely on (very unreliable and intermittent) buses or drive further (and hence contribute more to negative climate impacts) for necessary amenities. That's bad public policy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Don't feel guilt or shame, that's fine with me.

But, as the PP said, don't expect public policy to make it easy for you to get to Bethesda Metro by driving yourself and parking. In fact, public policy should make it increasingly hard. That's the stick. Public policy should also provide carrots, in the form of improving other options for you to get there.

Anonymous wrote:

I do plenty to limit my carbon emissions and I contribute (monetarily and time) to organizations involved in related efforts.

But I feel absolutely zero guilt and will not be remotely shamed for my 8 minute drive into Bethesda rather than taking a bus that would add at least 20 minutes to my commute each way, often more if I miss the bus and have to wait for the next one. (The app is helpful, but in addition to not always being accurate, I don't always have complete control over when I am able to be at the bus stop, so it doesn't solve all the problems of only every 30 minutes.)

The emissions from such a very short ride is negligible and I am sure there are many things that you do that have as much or impact on the environment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure anyone thinks parking will be banned or substantially reduced. But, based on the thread you mentioned, there are at least some people who think it should be because every should/will take the bus, bike, or walk.

That thread went down a rabbit hole because one person wanted parking FOR METRO RIDERS because of her personal issues, and someone else pushed back against autocentrism in general. I don't think either actually mentioned any particular policy proposals.

It is a fact that garage entrances across sidewalks are a deterrent to comfortable walking, and can be a real safety issue for bike lanes. Its also certain that garages will exist for visitors (again, no policy to even ban them for new buildings in Bethesda, that I am aware of, much less getting rid of existing ones except as the market redevelops them) but better if they are not used by metro commuters. Not sure the policies to achieve that - municipal garages with good short term rates but no long term parking maybe?

I don't think anyone was advocating for parking for metro riders specifically like the wmata lots further out. Rather, she was saying there was nothing wrong with people driving into Bethesda to use the metro. As is, there are lots of private lots people use, at least in part, for those purposes.

OP of this thread here

I don't believe in shaming people for their personal choices, given the options made available to them. I mean its great if someone chooses to do something personally inconvenient to save the planet, whether that is choosing an alternative means of travel even when handy and affordable parking is available, or choosing to grow vegetables in your garden when its not that easy, or going composting, or whatever. But I don't think that is how we change our communities much less save the planet - we do so by policy changes.

That is why I tried to make this about policy. If there is no policy change at issue, there is not much more to say. I thought maybe there is a question either about management of the County garages, or about parking minimums/maximums at private developments.

Also I wonder if there are initiatives to improve bus service into downtown Bethesda (I know about the Purple Line of course) - ISTR a BRT line on Rockville Pike as part of the County BRT plan? But sounds like that wouldnt help the individual in question. I mention because this is a spin off of a thread about Alexandria where there is more bus service, and consideration to increasing that.

We are frying our planet right now, potentially impacting its ability to sustain the number of people living on it and we used to think these were year 2100 issues it now appears these maybe year 2050 issues.

So I've got no trouble shaming people about how much carbon they are responsible for.

As to the question at hand Bethesda is very well served by buses.

The problem is the bus routes are not well thought or or efficient.

Most of the ride on buses run on convoluted routes through very congested areas instead of on more efficient direct routes. It is great that some of these routes hit lots of corners and neighborhoods but when it takes 40 minutes to go from Bethesda to Wheaton in an affluent area the only people you are going to get taking these buses are lower income folks who have no alternatives.

So because they are slow, and also because the routes don't make a lot of sense (zigzagging on and off the main routes rather than running on them in a straight line) some people who would otherwise use the buses don't.

Something like what DC does with the circulator routes might make sense during the AM/PM rush hour - buses running reliably every 10 minutes along a logical route. When you are transferring from Metrorail and you just miss a bus that runs every 20 minutes it just kills ridership, especially this time of year.

It would also help a great deal if all of the jurisdictions made the bus free when you are transferring to and from Metrorail instead of being an additional charge.

I also think Montgomery County needs to find some ways to enable the buses to not have to come off the main roads and loop through the stations - there are a number of routes that serve but don't begin or end at the Bethesda station but all of those buses have to go through the station which adds 4-5 minutes to each route - find a way for those buses to stay on Wisconsin Avenue and just pull in and out of the bus stops. Same thing with the Medical Center Stop and Silver Spring.