so where did OP's son learn to take care of his house/property and family? or does he think his paycheck is suffice and the magic fairy does all the other 100 things?

Dear OP, repeat to yourself - I am not the parent. I am not the parent. I am not the parent. My son and DIL are adults and should be treated as such. I will not criticize if that is an issue. I will be respectful. I am not the parent.

NP here. if we're sharing. i really liked this post.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/reasons-for-estrangement.html

Members of estranged parents' forums are simultaneously obsessed with learning why their children are estranged, and resistant to analysis of their children's reasons for estrangement. Members not only reject the reasons their children give them, they ignore hard reasons like their children's addiction or mental illness. Their preferred explanations are designed to soothe the parent's pain: "This generation is narcissistic." (It's the culture's fault. My child turned out like this despite my best efforts.) "My child expects me to be perfect." (The things he accuses me of are little mistakes that any human being would make.) "Estrangement is genetic." (And the genes are probably from her other parent's side. Even if they're from mine, I'm not responsible for the DNA I gave her. She's responsible for what she chooses to do with it.)

The result is that estranged parents' communities lack community wisdom about dealing with adult children who are mentally ill, addicted, abused by their spouses, etc., all problems that by the members' own accounts contributed to a substantial number of estrangements. In place of the missing knowledge is a rich and varied body of knowledge about how to self-soothe: how to stop obsessing over the estranged child, and how to feel less guilty, rejected, and worthless.

Don't get me wrong, estranged parents need this knowledge. They need it like clean water and pure air. But their approach relies on a false dichotomy: Feel better about yourself OR develop a better understanding of the estrangement. Undermine your child's reasons for estranging so you don't have to take their criticism to heart, OR suffer the pain of seeing yourself as flawed and your actions as hurtful so you can figure out what you need to do to heal the estrangement.

This dichotomy is at the heart of estrangement. If a parent was at fault and she could truly hear her child's reasons, she wouldn't be estranged. If the fault lay with the child and the parent could approach the problem from a perspective other than, "How does this make me feel?", her understanding of the problem would be so different that she wouldn't need the kind of support estrangement forums provide. And until a parent can see the relationship in different terms, she's going to keep insisting that her children won't talk to her because she was such a good mother to them that they're spoiled, entitled brats who can't handle conflict, expect perfection, and tell lies to their rich in-laws.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted this here the other day, and I swear, it’s textbook.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I have no sides in this thread but that link is a load of tripe. Post again when you have a legitimate resource to share.

Np. I found that link to be spot on and extremely helpful, and I too have no sides in this thread.

He-said-she-said. Nothing to learn here.

This site is way more than he/she said, but you are yes referencing one of the case studies. There are case examples yes. However, the website more broadly has wonderful insights. From other parts of the wonderful website and some quotes:

"So why study members of estranged parents' forums? For a deeper understanding of how abusers think. To learn how abusers present themselves as non-abusive, and how to tell when they're distorting their stories. Because the face the estranged parent movement presents to the world is false, and good-hearted people are being convinced to aid in the very abuse they want to prevent."
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estranged-parents-forums.html

"Not all estranged parents are abusive. But if they're a member of a estranged parents' forum, they're not one of those parents." (aka OP is posting on a forum so hi!)

"Abusers also take the more common beliefs to the next level. “I’m not responsible for hurting you if I didn’t mean to” synergizes nicely with “If I have an emotional reaction to something someone does, the other person is responsible for my emotions” and “emotions cause actions,” creating a beautiful world in which other people make the abuser feel things, and the feelings make the abuser do things, but because the abuser didn’t have volition at any point, she’s not responsible for the damage she did. (Note that the abuser can’t make other people feel emotions. Other people’s emotions are allllll their responsibility.) Normal people can also fall prey to this tempting combination of dysfunctions, but if it doesn’t get jolted out of them in middle school, high-school drama usually does it, and if that doesn’t work, the realities of adult life hit them between the eyes shortly thereafter. It takes special dedication (and a bubble of enablers) to hang onto this set of beliefs well into adulthood."
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/dysfunctional-beliefs.html


""Actionable" is an important word to remember when reading the list of reasons parents prefer. The reasons remove all blame from the parent, except possibly the blame of being too good and spoiling the child; they place all of the responsibility and agency upon the child or interfering third parties; and there's nothing the parent can do about it except wait. These "soft" reasons usually stop one step short of an actual reason for estrangement. For example, if your child cut you off because she has poor conflict-resolution skills and solves problems by running, what was the conflict that made her feel she had to run? If your child is punishing you for things he imagines you did to him, why does he imagine you did those things? Is he delusional? Is he lying? If he's lying, what's driving him to lie? If he's delusional, what's causing his delusions? Behind every soft reason is a hard reason, a piece of psychological bedrock, but members actively avoid digging for it."
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/reasons-for-estrangement.html

"The culture of estranged parents' forums is built around the members' resistance to criticism."
http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/summary.html


The entire table of this link - http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/differences-between-forums.html

Click around a bit on the website perhaps

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted this here the other day, and I swear, it’s textbook.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I have no sides in this thread but that link is a load of tripe. Post again when you have a legitimate resource to share.

Np. I found that link to be spot on and extremely helpful, and I too have no sides in this thread.

He-said-she-said. Nothing to learn here.

Who hurt you?

Anonymous wrote:My DIL regularly threatens to cut off access to her kids.. I understand she is stressed but I'm available any time she needs a sitter, without fail. Anytime we have the slightest disagreement this comes up. I'd happily take her up on it except my grandkids would suffer. I'm so sick of her diva drama queen behavior.

For her, it's not "the slightest", you're doing something that's a very major deal to her. Wake up and practice some self reflection before you're cut off.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted this here the other day, and I swear, it’s textbook.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I have no sides in this thread but that link is a load of tripe. Post again when you have a legitimate resource to share.

Np. I found that link to be spot on and extremely helpful, and I too have no sides in this thread.

He-said-she-said. Nothing to learn here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted this here the other day, and I swear, it’s textbook.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I have no sides in this thread but that link is a load of tripe. Post again when you have a legitimate resource to share.

Np. I found that link to be spot on and extremely helpful, and I too have no sides in this thread.

Anonymous wrote:I'm not going to call CPS.

I have LOTS of compassion for DIL. I've offered all kinds of help but I'm not going to drug kids to sleep or put up with fleas. I will pay for exterminator, dog grooming but I'm told there's not a problem. There is.

She can take break from me if she wants but its the kids that will suffer the most. Still, I'm up to here with her nastiness and threats.

How will the kids suffer the most here? There will be much less tension if their lives if family isn't constantly fighting around them.

As a kid who grew up with only one grandparent who lived across the country and it was too expensive to visit, what suffering did I endure growing up only seeing her every 3 years or so? Instead I relished my time with her when I had it. So what suffering?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Their $500,000 house is literally jumping with fleas. I won't go their house to sit anymore and insist on bathing kids and changing clothing when they come here. That's the latest. (I also draw the line at drugging kids with Benadryl at bedtime.)

I've deferred to most things. They still aren't potty trained at four and have terrible food habits. I usually refrain from commenting on such but drugs and bugs have been too much for me.

I know this is not going to be a popular suggestion but this might be worth calling CPS? (More for the fleas and drugging the kids then delayed potty training)

I bet it is more this situation than that which the OP is referring; from a PP:

"If the situation is as you describe, calling CPS would be appropriate. On the other hand, if you are, like many inlaws, creating drama by way over stating the case (e.g. they got a new kitten from a shelter and had some fleas in the house for a couple of weeks, one kid was sick when you were there and got benadryl when you didn't think it was quite necessary, one kid had an accident when you were there which you generalize to "they are not potty trained") then you need therapy. We can't tell from your posts which is the case, buy you should talk to a professional."

Also see the prior discussion from other PPs about the hardship of getting rid of fleas given treatment resistance. Our prior rowhouse neighbors had bedbugs, and no matter what we tried they kept coming through the wall. We eventually moved (thank goddness we rented), but my heart does go out to others struggling with something similar.

Anonymous wrote: Believe it or not, your grandkids will be fine without you.

Sadly, this is true. They will grow up just like any other kid that never had any grandparents.
The only difference is they'll learn to believe that grandparents don't matter. That it's ok not to visit them or have any meaningful contact with them.

...and then one day - YOU are that grandparent.

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted this here the other day, and I swear, it’s textbook.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I thought of this exactly!!!

Anonymous wrote:Their $500,000 house is literally jumping with fleas. I won't go their house to sit anymore and insist on bathing kids and changing clothing when they come here. That's the latest. (I also draw the line at drugging kids with Benadryl at bedtime.)

I've deferred to most things. They still aren't potty trained at four and have terrible food habits. I usually refrain from commenting on such but drugs and bugs have been too much for me.

I know this is not going to be a popular suggestion but this might be worth calling CPS? (More for the fleas and drugging the kids then delayed potty training)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not going to call CPS.

I have LOTS of compassion for DIL. I've offered all kinds of help but I'm not going to drug kids to sleep or put up with fleas. I will pay for exterminator, dog grooming but I'm told there's not a problem. There is.

She can take break from me if she wants but its the kids that will suffer the most. Still, I'm up to here with her nastiness and threats.

You keep saying how the kids will "suffer". Why do you think that? What do you offer them that's so amazing?

FWIW I don't like fleas (actually I think everyone who allows any animals in the house is disgusting, and fleas are just one reason why) but I can see you're adding a lot of stress to their house.

Can they not afford alternate childcare? And where is your son?? I know people have asked you this but I haven't seen an answer anywhere.

Let me guess. Her son is busy and important so she doesn’t want to bother him and take his focus off of his important job so all of OP’s “ help” and “advice” is directed to her DIL even if she works as well but her job isn’t important like her son’s is. —ask me how I know

Anonymous wrote:I'm not going to call CPS.

I have LOTS of compassion for DIL. I've offered all kinds of help but I'm not going to drug kids to sleep or put up with fleas. I will pay for exterminator, dog grooming but I'm told there's not a problem. There is.

She can take break from me if she wants but its the kids that will suffer the most. Still, I'm up to here with her nastiness and threats.

You keep saying how the kids will "suffer". Why do you think that? What do you offer them that's so amazing?

FWIW I don't like fleas (actually I think everyone who allows any animals in the house is disgusting, and fleas are just one reason why) but I can see you're adding a lot of stress to their house.

Can they not afford alternate childcare? And where is your son?? I know people have asked you this but I haven't seen an answer anywhere.