Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

Anonymous wrote:Catholic schools are successful in the way that Sweden is successful...an educated, involved population with homogeneous values.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

Anonymous wrote:I raised raised Catholic and went to Catholic school my whole life -- but mostly because their academic reputation where I grew up was better than the public schools. When I moved to the DC area, I sent my kids to public school because so many of them are so good. No reason to spend the extra money, since we are not particularly religious.

It is simply untrue that Catholic schools expel students by the dozens to maintain discipline. I cannot recall anyone ever being expelled from any Catholic school that I ever attended, and the schools that I attended were very strict. I'm not saying it never happens, but it doesn't happen often. I suspect that the majority of posters who want to write off this study by talking about expulsions have no personal experience with Catholic schools.

It's also worth remembering that the majority of inner city Catholic school children are not Catholic -- and often not religious at all. It's not the religion that's keeping them in line.

There are a lot a folks out there who hate the Catholic church and will never give anything associated with it any credit, even when credit is clearly due. Bigotry in any form is an ugly thing.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic school is not the way I would choose to imbue discipline in kids.

I’d love to see the studies that quantify the legacy of emotional and psychological damage that people the world over have from attending Catholic schools. That’s not even introducing the record of sexual abuse and pedophilia.

While you wait, you can check all the horrible cases of sexual abuse and pedophilia in independent and public schools in our area. Two examples:

https://wtop.com/dc/2017/03/georgetown-day-school-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/ex-charter-school-teacher-sentenced-to-8-years-in-prison-for-sexually-assaulting-six-students/2017/12/01/860c168c-d6e2-11e7-95bf-df7c19270879_story.html?utm_term=.b60ba20747f2

Do you have any example of abuse in a Catholic school here in our area, dear?

I don't think there are tons of abuse allegations at the Catholic Schools... just public and other privates. It feels like almost every school has it now.

My DC didn't suffer (or heard about) any abuse problem in any Catholic school in this area. None. ZERO. But the private and public schools have tons of cases. GDS, Sidwell, Mann, LAMB,...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.