Anonymous
05/08/2018 14:43
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I answered this question before, OP. I actually went and found what I wrote because it still makes sense to me.
As someone on the other side of marriage and children and family, I will give you a bit of insight. Yes, there were YEARS when I seriously considered getting divorced. Yes, these were the same years when we had small children or financial struggles or health issues. I didn't and I didn't because I don't view marriage as solely a romantic relationship. It is much, much deeper to me. It's family. It's taking someone and making them your person. And while we never veered into true toxic territory (abuse, adultery, etc.), we had the kind of rough patches that sent many, many of my friends into divorces. The difference? We worked through them and after each one, we were stronger, closer, more intimate. We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage. We went through fire together (or alone, pulling the other on their backs). And I say looking at three grown kids, an empty, sold house and a retirement, our next phase strangely feels like the first one. We travel, we have fun, we have time, we nap, sleep together, have long talks about the meaning of it all, and if it was a recording or a text of our days, we would sound strangely similar to those two 24 year olds who lost their jobs and decided to wonder around Europe together for a year (where I spend equal parts crying and feeling more alive than I ever had). But we're 65 and it's a lifetime between those points. Three kids. A grandchild. Five different careers (yes, I mean careers, not jobs). A flight attendant turned speech therapist. A journalist, turned attorney, turned high school history teacher. A house that some other young family is now raising their children in. My gray hair. His long departed hair. We are so much more than those difficult years when I was a stressed out working mom and he was a stressed out working father. A blip. But I didn't know this at the time. I felt it, I felt that there was a long game to be had when it comes to marriage. But I didn't realize how long and how great the payoff could be.
I don't know how other people define love and marriage. But I think my deal was worth making.
OP here. I do appreciate your post...but I am not in this situation. If I felt the love was there from the beginning, I would stay. There wasn't. It was just a mistake but now there are kids involved. I wanted to leave within a year of marriage and had doubts literally walking down the aisle. We also married later (early 30s). Also, we do not have this: "We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage." We don't even like each other. It is all pretend.
PP here. Then the choice is clear. If you don't want to be married, end your marriage. Pull the plug and deal with the fallout. Everything is a choice and choosing to stay is a fine one, but OWN IT. Own your decision to stay. Own your decision to go. Stop making it about what he's doing or not doing and take a long look at yourself and move forward. You don't want to stay married. Well, leave. You want a better marriage? Well, it's a ton of work, but you need to at least do your part. Either way.
One thing I am seeing in your posts is a wish that your marriage can end without any culpability or wrong on your part. That's not happening. It takes two to marry, you both decided on children, and you walked down the isle. You said yes. Stop blaming someone else for your choices and start living your life on honest terms. That's not happening now.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 12:20
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
OP, I am in your situation, and I know how it feels. I also married someone I had doubts about, but there were solid reasons. We also have small kids and are in a very similar situation. I know what it's like to get pregnant and then not have sex for years. When I was a young teenager, I thought people like you and me were stupid, that you only have kids when you love each other, but you know, life is life. I have been blaming myself for marrying the wrong person, having kids, and making our lives miserable. A therapist recently told me one thing that I found very empowering. He told me that there reasons I married my husband were not bad reasons at the time and that I should not view that as a mistake even if I had doubts about getting married in the first place. This allowed me to forgive myself. Things are still tough between us and divorce is still in the picture. But you know what, we are human, we all make mistakes and you can't blame yourself for something you thought was the right thing to do in the past. If you did not abort those kids, you clearly felt that it was the right thing to keep both pregnancies (and this is coming from a pro-choice person). I feel your pain, but please try not to blame yourself for marrying this man and having kids with him.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 12:07
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:I answered this question before, OP. I actually went and found what I wrote because it still makes sense to me.
As someone on the other side of marriage and children and family, I will give you a bit of insight. Yes, there were YEARS when I seriously considered getting divorced. Yes, these were the same years when we had small children or financial struggles or health issues. I didn't and I didn't because I don't view marriage as solely a romantic relationship. It is much, much deeper to me. It's family. It's taking someone and making them your person. And while we never veered into true toxic territory (abuse, adultery, etc.), we had the kind of rough patches that sent many, many of my friends into divorces. The difference? We worked through them and after each one, we were stronger, closer, more intimate. We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage. We went through fire together (or alone, pulling the other on their backs). And I say looking at three grown kids, an empty, sold house and a retirement, our next phase strangely feels like the first one. We travel, we have fun, we have time, we nap, sleep together, have long talks about the meaning of it all, and if it was a recording or a text of our days, we would sound strangely similar to those two 24 year olds who lost their jobs and decided to wonder around Europe together for a year (where I spend equal parts crying and feeling more alive than I ever had). But we're 65 and it's a lifetime between those points. Three kids. A grandchild. Five different careers (yes, I mean careers, not jobs). A flight attendant turned speech therapist. A journalist, turned attorney, turned high school history teacher. A house that some other young family is now raising their children in. My gray hair. His long departed hair. We are so much more than those difficult years when I was a stressed out working mom and he was a stressed out working father. A blip. But I didn't know this at the time. I felt it, I felt that there was a long game to be had when it comes to marriage. But I didn't realize how long and how great the payoff could be.
I don't know how other people define love and marriage. But I think my deal was worth making.
OP here. I do appreciate your post...but I am not in this situation. If I felt the love was there from the beginning, I would stay. There wasn't. It was just a mistake but now there are kids involved. I wanted to leave within a year of marriage and had doubts literally walking down the aisle. We also married later (early 30s). Also, we do not have this: "We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage." We don't even like each other. It is all pretend.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 11:39
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You want too much from marriage. Don't upheave your family over this.
What?! I think we as a culture expect too much from marriage, but sex only once in seven years is too much to accept. She owes it to herself to change her situation, whether that means demanding more from her marriage or moving on.
Of course, they can rework their marriage and rekindle intimacy. It takes work but obviously you can.
OP here: I do not know how to rekindle something that was never really there. The marriage was a giant mistake. I have always felt this way. It was lacking while dating. We should have broken up but did not. I think it would be different if there was something to rekindle...problem is something was always missing and we both settled.
And yet you had children who expect to grow up in a stable environment.
own your mistakes OP, get on with the work of being part of a positive family and stop griping here about not having sex.
There are plenty of marriages with low to no sex. That is not the be all and end all unless you are a teenager.
OP here: my kids were conceived in once-in-blue moon things. I did not expect to get pregnant either time (the first time was a true no-protection mistake). Also, this is not just about sex. We don't talk except for things dealing with the kids. We do not go out. We are not friends. We are not close emotionally or physically. This about how do you stay for kids if you are unhappy every single day and feel like you are in prison even though "it is best for the kids." (Even if we divorced I know 100% they would have a better childhood than I did for a variety of reasons--and my parents were married, unfortunately).
Sure, but why should the OP accept it? She did not sign up for a lifetime of celibacy.
She doesn't much seem to care, though. You do, PP>
Anonymous
05/08/2018 11:36
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Every marriage is different. Every divorce is different. In my case, our co-parenting is much better than our marriage was.
Look at some of the threads in special parenting concerns on co-parenting to get a peek of what you could be in store for, and compare to what you’re dealing with now.
How old are your children?
One is in preschool; one is in early elementary school
Good time to divorce. No overthinking, no angst. Not teenagers. No highstakes exams or grades looming. No sport, music, etc. that matter. Do it now.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 11:32
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
I answered this question before, OP. I actually went and found what I wrote because it still makes sense to me.
As someone on the other side of marriage and children and family, I will give you a bit of insight. Yes, there were YEARS when I seriously considered getting divorced. Yes, these were the same years when we had small children or financial struggles or health issues. I didn't and I didn't because I don't view marriage as solely a romantic relationship. It is much, much deeper to me. It's family. It's taking someone and making them your person. And while we never veered into true toxic territory (abuse, adultery, etc.), we had the kind of rough patches that sent many, many of my friends into divorces. The difference? We worked through them and after each one, we were stronger, closer, more intimate. We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage. We went through fire together (or alone, pulling the other on their backs). And I say looking at three grown kids, an empty, sold house and a retirement, our next phase strangely feels like the first one. We travel, we have fun, we have time, we nap, sleep together, have long talks about the meaning of it all, and if it was a recording or a text of our days, we would sound strangely similar to those two 24 year olds who lost their jobs and decided to wonder around Europe together for a year (where I spend equal parts crying and feeling more alive than I ever had). But we're 65 and it's a lifetime between those points. Three kids. A grandchild. Five different careers (yes, I mean careers, not jobs). A flight attendant turned speech therapist. A journalist, turned attorney, turned high school history teacher. A house that some other young family is now raising their children in. My gray hair. His long departed hair. We are so much more than those difficult years when I was a stressed out working mom and he was a stressed out working father. A blip. But I didn't know this at the time. I felt it, I felt that there was a long game to be had when it comes to marriage. But I didn't realize how long and how great the payoff could be.
I don't know how other people define love and marriage. But I think my deal was worth making.
As someone on the other side of marriage and children and family, I will give you a bit of insight. Yes, there were YEARS when I seriously considered getting divorced. Yes, these were the same years when we had small children or financial struggles or health issues. I didn't and I didn't because I don't view marriage as solely a romantic relationship. It is much, much deeper to me. It's family. It's taking someone and making them your person. And while we never veered into true toxic territory (abuse, adultery, etc.), we had the kind of rough patches that sent many, many of my friends into divorces. The difference? We worked through them and after each one, we were stronger, closer, more intimate. We had a mutual respect and fundamental kindness that was the ethos of our marriage. We went through fire together (or alone, pulling the other on their backs). And I say looking at three grown kids, an empty, sold house and a retirement, our next phase strangely feels like the first one. We travel, we have fun, we have time, we nap, sleep together, have long talks about the meaning of it all, and if it was a recording or a text of our days, we would sound strangely similar to those two 24 year olds who lost their jobs and decided to wonder around Europe together for a year (where I spend equal parts crying and feeling more alive than I ever had). But we're 65 and it's a lifetime between those points. Three kids. A grandchild. Five different careers (yes, I mean careers, not jobs). A flight attendant turned speech therapist. A journalist, turned attorney, turned high school history teacher. A house that some other young family is now raising their children in. My gray hair. His long departed hair. We are so much more than those difficult years when I was a stressed out working mom and he was a stressed out working father. A blip. But I didn't know this at the time. I felt it, I felt that there was a long game to be had when it comes to marriage. But I didn't realize how long and how great the payoff could be.
I don't know how other people define love and marriage. But I think my deal was worth making.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:47
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Start talking to him. Plan a regular date night where you schedule an activity to do together - tennis? Bowling? Biking? Anything you can do together. Put your resentment aside, share a bottle of wine, and I isolate sex with him. Do it again in a few days. Send him texts thanking him for doing x/y/z, and telling him how much you appreciate something he's done. Ask him to take walks with you after dinner. Start watching a show together, and sit near each other while you watch.
It's not that easy. I'm not OP but I tried that - scheduling dates and trying to talk to DH. It went nowhere. I'd suggest like 10 things I wanted to do and he'd be like "yeah, maybe ..." and then never agree to a time to do any of them (they weren't crazy ideas - a movie, a hike, a museum). I tried talking with him, but he didn't really listen. He mostly liked to talk about very technical aspects of his job that I don't understand (I WOH, but not in that field). I just gave up and do my own thing with my sister and other friends and try not to dwell on the fact that DH is essentially not someone that I have a personal relationship with at this point - just politeness and stuff about the kids.
Have a few drinks together. That might work. Lowers inhibitions.
We have done that multiple times. It does not work.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:46
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:OP, you have given up on your marriage a while ago. Not sure what advice you want to hear. Your options are 1) status quo which brings financial security and more access to children and minimizing disruption to their lives, or 2) cheating and staying a little more sane, or 3) divorce.
I would choose option 2, I think most parents do what they need to do to stay married and sane.
I think you have a bit of a rosy picture of option 3. What do you think most marriages look like? I mean, my spouse and I are roommates, friends, co-parents, and we carve out time 1x per week to have sex because he wants to and we need that bond. I know there are couples with kids who still tear up the sheets and have wild passion but they are in the minority.
My parents divorced, I am fine but I also don't want to underestimate the massive hassle that follows and the fact my parents don't see their grandchildren that often because frankly they don't get along and they re-married crazy people I try to avoid.
Also, color me skeptical that your DH isn't cheating. Few men would stay faithful if sexless for months, let alone years.
Point being, it sounds like you have 80% of a good marriage and while I am sure you can find sex and perhaps love again, its much harder to find the rest that you already have.
OP here. He is not cheating. I have often wished he would so I could get an immediate divorce (no waiting period for that if you have evidence). I told him years ago I did not care if he cheated because I really don't. He does not have desire to cheat or desire at all with low t, quite frankly. I personally have no interest in remarrying ever again if we divorced. I might do a FWB situation but that is it. I would never live with a man again (especially because of the kids). Also, I could care less about impact of grandchildren later on. I will be so old (at least 70) so who cares? I really don't care about sharing time with grandkids, if they ever even exist. Problem is the kids have no idea and it would break their hearts...that is why I am still here. Us both not seeing them every day is the problem.
I have also done all of the trying to rekindle advice here. I decided in January to do that but then we had a huge argument in which he threatened divorce over something stupid and I thought, okay, I am just done. I told him that but he says he does not want to divorce. It is so frustrating.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:34
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Start talking to him. Plan a regular date night where you schedule an activity to do together - tennis? Bowling? Biking? Anything you can do together. Put your resentment aside, share a bottle of wine, and I isolate sex with him. Do it again in a few days. Send him texts thanking him for doing x/y/z, and telling him how much you appreciate something he's done. Ask him to take walks with you after dinner. Start watching a show together, and sit near each other while you watch.
It's not that easy. I'm not OP but I tried that - scheduling dates and trying to talk to DH. It went nowhere. I'd suggest like 10 things I wanted to do and he'd be like "yeah, maybe ..." and then never agree to a time to do any of them (they weren't crazy ideas - a movie, a hike, a museum). I tried talking with him, but he didn't really listen. He mostly liked to talk about very technical aspects of his job that I don't understand (I WOH, but not in that field). I just gave up and do my own thing with my sister and other friends and try not to dwell on the fact that DH is essentially not someone that I have a personal relationship with at this point - just politeness and stuff about the kids.
Have a few drinks together. That might work. Lowers inhibitions.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:27
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You want too much from marriage. Don't upheave your family over this.
What?! I think we as a culture expect too much from marriage, but sex only once in seven years is too much to accept. She owes it to herself to change her situation, whether that means demanding more from her marriage or moving on.
Of course, they can rework their marriage and rekindle intimacy. It takes work but obviously you can.
OP here: I do not know how to rekindle something that was never really there. The marriage was a giant mistake. I have always felt this way. It was lacking while dating. We should have broken up but did not. I think it would be different if there was something to rekindle...problem is something was always missing and we both settled.
And yet you had children who expect to grow up in a stable environment.
own your mistakes OP, get on with the work of being part of a positive family and stop griping here about not having sex.
There are plenty of marriages with low to no sex. That is not the be all and end all unless you are a teenager.
OP here: my kids were conceived in once-in-blue moon things. I did not expect to get pregnant either time (the first time was a true no-protection mistake). Also, this is not just about sex. We don't talk except for things dealing with the kids. We do not go out. We are not friends. We are not close emotionally or physically. This about how do you stay for kids if you are unhappy every single day and feel like you are in prison even though "it is best for the kids." (Even if we divorced I know 100% they would have a better childhood than I did for a variety of reasons--and my parents were married, unfortunately).
Then start working to change those things!! It's not the easy way out but it's the right one. And the noble one as well. Start talking to him. Plan a regular date night where you schedule an activity to do together - tennis? Bowling? Biking? Anything you can do together. Put your resentment aside, share a bottle of wine, and I isolate sex with him. Do it again in a few days. Send him texts thanking him for doing x/y/z, and telling him how much you appreciate something he's done. Ask him to take walks with you after dinner. Start watching a show together, and sit near each other while you watch.
Turn this around. What do you have to lose? Your problem is you decided SO long ago that you didn't want this marriage to work and you weren't committed to working on it...so of COURSE you've ended up where you are. The hurt and resentment has built up over the y are on both sides, but you can put that aside and try to build a strong marriage at this point. You owe it to your children, and to yourself, AND to your husband, to give this a genuine effort. Take that one foot you've already had out the door all these years, and bring it back in and commit to actually trying to break the bad habits you've gotten into
+1
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:24
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You want too much from marriage. Don't upheave your family over this.
What?! I think we as a culture expect too much from marriage, but sex only once in seven years is too much to accept. She owes it to herself to change her situation, whether that means demanding more from her marriage or moving on.
Of course, they can rework their marriage and rekindle intimacy. It takes work but obviously you can.
OP here: I do not know how to rekindle something that was never really there. The marriage was a giant mistake. I have always felt this way. It was lacking while dating. We should have broken up but did not. I think it would be different if there was something to rekindle...problem is something was always missing and we both settled.
And yet you had children who expect to grow up in a stable environment.
own your mistakes OP, get on with the work of being part of a positive family and stop griping here about not having sex.
There are plenty of marriages with low to no sex. That is not the be all and end all unless you are a teenager.
+1
Anonymous
05/08/2018 09:11
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
OP, you have given up on your marriage a while ago. Not sure what advice you want to hear. Your options are 1) status quo which brings financial security and more access to children and minimizing disruption to their lives, or 2) cheating and staying a little more sane, or 3) divorce.
I would choose option 2, I think most parents do what they need to do to stay married and sane.
I think you have a bit of a rosy picture of option 3. What do you think most marriages look like? I mean, my spouse and I are roommates, friends, co-parents, and we carve out time 1x per week to have sex because he wants to and we need that bond. I know there are couples with kids who still tear up the sheets and have wild passion but they are in the minority.
My parents divorced, I am fine but I also don't want to underestimate the massive hassle that follows and the fact my parents don't see their grandchildren that often because frankly they don't get along and they re-married crazy people I try to avoid.
Also, color me skeptical that your DH isn't cheating. Few men would stay faithful if sexless for months, let alone years.
Point being, it sounds like you have 80% of a good marriage and while I am sure you can find sex and perhaps love again, its much harder to find the rest that you already have.
I would choose option 2, I think most parents do what they need to do to stay married and sane.
I think you have a bit of a rosy picture of option 3. What do you think most marriages look like? I mean, my spouse and I are roommates, friends, co-parents, and we carve out time 1x per week to have sex because he wants to and we need that bond. I know there are couples with kids who still tear up the sheets and have wild passion but they are in the minority.
My parents divorced, I am fine but I also don't want to underestimate the massive hassle that follows and the fact my parents don't see their grandchildren that often because frankly they don't get along and they re-married crazy people I try to avoid.
Also, color me skeptical that your DH isn't cheating. Few men would stay faithful if sexless for months, let alone years.
Point being, it sounds like you have 80% of a good marriage and while I am sure you can find sex and perhaps love again, its much harder to find the rest that you already have.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 08:17
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Same here. I tried and tried for a partnerhsuommodel snd for him to be proactive, lead any aspect of the family, give input or have an opinion in anything (children’s sports, weekend activities, what schools, vacations, broken appliances in house), and he would not and could not engage.
He has something off in his head.
About five years in after kids it became clear that I had to operate as a single mom whether he raged along in marriage or we divorced and coparented. I chose the latter and remained married to a deadweight. But at least I’m not his Co parenting secretary who also does every single thing for the family.
He has something off in his head.
About five years in after kids it became clear that I had to operate as a single mom whether he raged along in marriage or we divorced and coparented. I chose the latter and remained married to a deadweight. But at least I’m not his Co parenting secretary who also does every single thing for the family.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 08:11
Subject: Re:How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
Start talking to him. Plan a regular date night where you schedule an activity to do together - tennis? Bowling? Biking? Anything you can do together. Put your resentment aside, share a bottle of wine, and I isolate sex with him. Do it again in a few days. Send him texts thanking him for doing x/y/z, and telling him how much you appreciate something he's done. Ask him to take walks with you after dinner. Start watching a show together, and sit near each other while you watch.
It's not that easy. I'm not OP but I tried that - scheduling dates and trying to talk to DH. It went nowhere. I'd suggest like 10 things I wanted to do and he'd be like "yeah, maybe ..." and then never agree to a time to do any of them (they weren't crazy ideas - a movie, a hike, a museum). I tried talking with him, but he didn't really listen. He mostly liked to talk about very technical aspects of his job that I don't understand (I WOH, but not in that field). I just gave up and do my own thing with my sister and other friends and try not to dwell on the fact that DH is essentially not someone that I have a personal relationship with at this point - just politeness and stuff about the kids.
Anonymous
05/08/2018 08:10
Subject: How do you know if your marriage is dead beyond repair—and do you stay for kids?
What would you want your child to do if s/he we’re in your situation?